Advice on my first AR
- Thread starter Terentius
- Start date
It'd probably be a lot like that time they opened a Mexican factory so they could cut costs. The parts were different from their German produced counterparts, and they were vastly inferior in quality. But no one sat around talking about how "they aren't real VW's"
What's the deal with the lawsuit?
Allow me to reiterate, I'm not speaking about the potential quality of the Expanse guns. My point all along has been that people only have a problem with this because of the Expanses price point. The fact that LaRue and Noveske do the same thing, but they get a pass because "they don't sell guns for $700" reinforces that ultimately this is people being snobby about price point. They saw an opportunity to grab a piece of a new market, and they took it. Why people are pretending this is some capital offense is beyond me.
The difference is that both cars came out of VW factories. In this case you have a rifle stamped Hartford, Connecticut when it was made in Texas by Bold Ideas.
They are being sued for breach of contract. Order went from 6000 rifles per quarter down to 2400 with no notice and apparently they still owe them $500K
Replacing barrels is not something done very often, in fact I would bet that a good 80% of AR owners will never ever "Shoot out" a barrel in their lifetime. Changing or modifying the handguard/forend is the big concern. You're stuck with one length in one style forever. For some that's an issue and others not so much. The MRP rifles are well made but the quick change barrel is a stupid idea that has near zero uses. You change the barrel, you change the zero. If you want to go from long barrel to short then simply swap tops with another that has a properly zeroed optic. The CC MRR offers you no at home option for changing the barrel which is even less desirable.
The price of the expanse has NOTHING to do with the complaints. The problem is that the cheap price immediately raised red flags with the smarter folks who dug deeper and discovered the rifle is not a true Hartford Colt product. Colt has a long standing reputation of being the gold standard in AR's due to their contractual obligations to the US military for their rifles. The expanse is simply a low cost low quality knock off of their legitimate milspec rifles. Colt is using their brand power to sell inferior products to the uneducated at the expense of their brand reputation.
CC, BCM, LMT, DD, Larue, Noveske, all make quality AR's and not one of them offers an ultra low cost "budget" rifle. The first four offer only high quality high end rifles(mostly milspec offerings) and really don't care what the buying public thinks of their pricing. Kind of the same way Ferrari and Lamborghini don't care what the public thinks of their six figure price tags. Do you see any of the above companies going out of business???
You're right in that Colt saw a market and went for it, unfortunately they got caught trying to sell their low end wares under their esteemed pedigree. The question now is not about the quality of the expanse, but the quality of future Colt rifles and whether or not they are truly Hartford built Colt guns. Colt has been in financial trouble for quite some time and the expanse move is not overly surprising. It's a quick and easy way to generate maximum revenue with minimum overhead. Again, at the expense of the brand reputation.
How does this effect the consumer and more to the point the OP and this discussion? The expanse offers a false sense of value based on brand name alone, same way the S&W AR15 sport II does. Neither are high quality but both are recognized and reputable(generally) brands; which makes the decision to buy an easy one for those who aren't armed with the knowledge to know the difference between an ok AR and an excellent AR.
We aren't talking about CCR, but I see your point. For those (again) in the know, the CCR is also an overpriced bottom level AR that is beig foisted on the well earned reputation of Colt products. Another reason and it is a fairly weak one is that people see the CCR as a COMPETITION RIFLE not a service grade rifle. For some that means it's ok to use non milspec parts or any other aftermarket or sub standard parts.
You aren't getting what you pay for because the expanse is not made with the same parts to the same specs/level of detail by genuine COLT employees at the Hartford plant. The expanse and the CCR are nothing more than low end AR rifles with Colt badging, it's as close to fraud as you can get in my opinion. Not the most honest or ethical business practice.
As I previously said when it pertained to the Expanse, and it also pertains to the CCR or any other AR. I'm not speaking about the quality of the rifle, I'm speaking solely to the double standard.
How so? You're paying substantially less than you would for their other offerings. Get what you pay for, and all that.
So where do you come out on Brownings, Winchesters and Weatherby's?
What double standard?? Dumb people will not realize that the lower cost Colt is not in fact the same high quality and higher priced Colt. However Colt is banking on this ignorance to sell guns, that is a shady business practice. I would never buy either the CCR or the Expanse as both are junk.
I agree that you get what you pay for but again the ignorant or the uneducated consumer doesn't understand that. Which is precisely why DPMS, Norinco, the Expanse and the S&W sport II(to name a few) all sell quite well. People are indoctrinated with what I call "Walmart syndrome" where price is the only factor whether they know the quality is lacking or not. Getting more while paying less is the formula, quality has no role in the equation. The big difference comes in the fact that the Expanse is riding on Colt's name which even the most novice of shooters knows and recognizes as quality. That quality simply is not there with the CCR or Expanse lines. No one associated Norinco or DPMS with quality so they're simply selling what they've always sold, low end guns.
I have no use for anything Browning makes, nor Winchester or Weatherby.
The expanse is not chunk, it's just not made entirely by Colt at Hartford and is not up to the TDP. I forget the company but they have a lawsuit against Colt, and they made most of the expanse. Personally I think the "expanse" was a bad idea for the most part. Colt needs new management, and owners, the people there have zero clue what is going in the market commercially and militarily.
If you buy Colt buy a 6920 Colt. TDP Milspec that is the only company that actually is legally able to sell a TDP rifle in USA. For Canada "COLT CANADA" is the only one that is closest to military issue. In fact Colt Canada probably makes the closest thing you can buy to a military specification rifle out there period that you can buy anywhere.
FN commercial variant is made in another plant They cannot make the TDP rifle they make for the US military or they would be sued.
BCM excellent quality but does not have the TDP or all manufacturing process that Colt USA has.
DD makes great stuff but again same thing.
If you are cheap, and stupid living in the USA then they will buy what is ever cheaper, that is the mentality these days. Plus very few people will pay for the SBR tax stamp to get a 14.5 never mind an actual CQB AR barrel length like 11.5 or whatever.. that's why the pistol Brace is a big seller.
Kidd X.
You and Leg are the only two Experts calling the Expanse .. "Junk"
Please elaborate. What parts should I have on hand to replace please?
Thanks
Its not that it is chunk. But if you look at the BCG for example it will not have all the markings that show it was properly MPI or that it was made by Colt at the Hartford plant. It is an outsourced rifle. Not a Colt made to the TDP.
You guys need too google TDP or perhaps read Black rifle II and catch up on the basics.
All these other guns are largely reversed engineered unless dealing with say a new system like HK416 produced by Heckler & Koch.
I have referenced the parts in my Expanse here:
https://www.cdnnsports.com/gun-parts.html#brand=AR&manufacturer=COLT,COLT COMPETITION
The Bolt is marked MP and the BCG is Chrome Lined.
Barrel is marked C proofed but I'm not sure what that means.
You are highlighting the problems with Colt Expanse line because now it’s hard to determine what compnoents are actually made by Colt Hartford Plant. That being said those are the markings for a properly TDP BCG. The lowers appeared to be milspec Colt made though. Barrel and uppers seemed to be not made by Colt. Don’t get me wrong the Expanse rifles seemed to be a good quality AR.
I wouldn’t worry to much.
Google Chris Bartocci small arms solution review he did on the Colt Expanse.
Pm me if you want and send pics I can help you determine what parts are made to Colt manufacturing standards if you wish.
The Expanse very much is junk when compared to a proper milspec rifle such as the rest of Colts' offerings(legit Colt that is). Compared to other hobby brands I'm sure the Expanse is a fair bit better but I won't be taking the chance to save a few hundred bucks.
You mention the TDP and although it is not 100% confirmed as anyone outside FN and Colt caught with the secret gov document is in big doodoo, BCM does have the specs and is the ONLY company to prove that they adhere to milspec testing standards. BCM has published third party independent testing on their barrels and bolts as an example. I don't doubt CC and DD as well as Colt USA are also making milspec guns but as it stands none of them have provided proof of such.
You need to do a lot of reading and research before commenting here.
KiddX.
Save your self from the absolutism disease.
I have no qualms about BCM. But let’s be serious here. What machine are in the BCM plant. Is it actually a manufacturing facility ?
If you look at there website it says they build AR’s what does that entail exactly. Yes they have great marketing with cool instructors that have been on the line many times. I would have zero problem grabbing a BCM gun.
What are they building exactly. They seem to hire a lot vets that take parts and assemble them. That is assembling ARs not manufacturing.
Your choice of words is not fair and does not describe the Colt Expanse and is more banter than explaining the differences.
Save your self from the absolutism disease.
I have no qualms about BCM. But let’s be serious here. What machine are in the BCM plant. Is it actually a manufacturing facility ?
If you look at there website it says they build AR’s what does that entail exactly. Yes they have great marketing with cool instructors that have been on the line many times. I would have zero problem grabbing a BCM gun.
What are they building exactly. They seem to hire a lot vets that take parts and assemble them. That is assembling ARs not manufacturing.
Your choice of words is not fair and does not describe the Colt Expanse and is more banter than explaining the differences.
- Location
- Cardinal, ON
I did the opposite from a lot of people and got the more expensive Colt Canada MRR 11.6" first. I didn't like the looks of most of the cheaper ones and I carried a C7/C8 for 21 years so I'm familiar with the Colt Canada/Diemaco brand. For my second I was going to get another MRR but this time with the 16" barrel but I went to SFRC one day and got to hold an FNH FN15 SBR 14.5" and ended buying it for $1000 less than the MRR.
