Advice on my first AR

[Pr589]

KAC are not Mikspec....so by this discussion does Kid X believe them to be inferior?

 

[bsand]

3 grand, eh? What are the specs?

My DD is running 2350 after tax, no optics. Putting irons on it only for now. After that, likely a telescope.

My rifle is around 3k with optics.

1600$ iur rifle, 450$ GA hispeed NM trigger, 120$ raptor charging handle 1200$ for mount and scope, 100$ muzzle break.

 

[rkm456]

KAC are not Mikspec....so by this discussion does Kid X believe them to be inferior?

They're expensive, so no. He just doesn't like cheap things.

 

[Kosmonument]

Who does?

 

[rkm456]

Here's a simple comparison. A plastic knife works just fine at the local rodeo/bbq. A steel knife is superior and will last much longer and fail far less often. Both would get the job done at the rodeo/bbq but the cost of purchasing steel flatware makes it impractical.

Here's the problem. Your analogy (like the paragraph that preceeded it) is demonstrably false. A steel knife is only superior to a plastic one, in certain conditions.

 

[rkm456]

Who does?

If people are being honest with themselves. Everyone.

 

[Kidd X]

KAC are not Mikspec....so by this discussion does Kid X believe them to be inferior?

True they are not milspec, they meet or exceed the specs with regards to durability and material characteristics. If KAC were crap like the other low end rifles they wouldn't be $3600.

They're expensive, so no. He just doesn't like cheap things.

Not true, I don't buy or appreciate low quality products. It just happens to be that low quality items are also low priced..

Here's the problem. Your analogy (like the paragraph that preceeded it) is demonstrably false. A steel knife is only superior to a plastic one, in certain conditions.

You're right, and that's the point I was making. Comparing item to item a steel knife is superior to a plastic one. Much like a known quantity milspec rifle is superior in design materials and craftsmanship to a non milspec rifle. For the shooting(or lack thereof) that most will do with their AR, a lower end rifle will likely do just fine, much like the plastic knife. However, when comparing product to product without interjecting intended use and/or frequency of use there is no comparison, a steel knife and a milspec rifle are superior to a plastic knife and non milspec rifle.

All this comes down to this statement. DO NOT say a non milspec rifle(obviously an AR) is "just as good as" a milspec rifle because it absolutely is not. If you want to say that your budget/non milspec rifle works just fine for your uses then that may well be true. There is a difference between identifying an appropriate product for ones personal use and identifying which product by design, material and craftsmanship is better.

 

[rkm456]

It just happens to be that low quality items are also low priced..

So by your logic, Glocks are now low quality?

Comparing item to item a steel knife is superior to a plastic one.

I'll reiterate for you. This statement is only true under specific circumstances, by virtue of that it's incorrect. I can sight you examples if need be.

For the shooting(or lack thereof) that most will do with their AR, a lower end rifle will likely do just fine

Which is what I said from the outset and you vehemently and repeatedly disagreed with throughout this thread.

DO NOT say a non milspec rifle(obviously an AR) is "just as good as" a milspec rifle because it absolutely is not.

I'll ask (again) how do you quantify that statement? When you started this witch hunt mid-length gas systems weren't mil-spec, but we'd both agree (both then and now) that they're more than adequate. You'd actually argue that it's vastly superior and that the mil-spec of carbine length is actually crappy (which is kind of hilarious)

If you want to say that your budget/non milspec rifle works just fine for your uses then that may well be true.

Which (again) is what I said from the outset, and you continually attempted to refute. I would disagree that I own any "budget" rifles, but you're obviously projecting so I'll ignore it.

There is a difference between identifying an appropriate product for ones personal use and identifying which product by design, material and craftsmanship is better.

Actually, the concept of "quality", and intended use are largely synonymous. If someone wants to shoot a hundred rounds of .223 per year a $3000 HK MR223 won't serve them any better than a $600 M&P15. As a humourous side note, if they have some sort of parts breakage, they're actually better off with the $600 option than the HK, but I digress.

 

[Weremey59]

Although I definitely don't care for Kidd X and he is completey full of himself on the majority of the things he says in this forum and others, however (I can't believe I'm going to say this) I agree with him. The beauty of an AR is the ability to buy anything milspec and have it run in your AR. The quality of the product is just as relevant with your AR as it is purchasing anything else as a consumer. Yes if it has the milspec stamp on it and is some made in China POS, it will work however for how long. You can not argue the quality of company's like Colt, DD and KAC however when say colt makes the expanse for $500-$1000 cheaper then there good quality genuine AR's, corner's had to be cut. Even without this news surfacing about them outsourcing there parts and calling it there own, you should be smart enough to ask why they are so much cheaper.

I'm not saying go out and drop $2000 on your first AR (I did) but don't get sucked into this BS of a $700 gun being the same quality as my DD. At the end of the day, unless you are military or LEO, it's just a range toy.

Just my opinion

 

[Kidd X]

So by your logic, Glocks are now low quality?

Apply some common sense for a change. Retail value does not equal absolute quality, it is an INDICATOR of quality. Glocks are far from cheap, they're just cheaper than other guns which happen to be of inferior design and/or materials.

I'll reiterate for you. This statement is only true under specific circumstances, by virtue of that it's incorrect. I can sight you examples if need be.

You seem to struggle with comprehension.. There is not one physical attribute of a plastic knife that trumps that of a steel knife. For the meal at the mall/fair etc the plastic knife will likely get the job done. It however does not cut as well, as fast or as easily as a steel knife. The plastic knife also runs a very high chance of failing, the steel knife, almost zero chance of failing. See the difference?? Both will work, one will work better and for longer.

Same story for the rifles. Your garden variety low end AR will likely work for the low round count plinker. The risk of failure is much higher, as is the potential for lesser performance be that reliability, durability, or consistency(accuracy). How do you "prove" that? The whole reason why milspec is the standard by which all rifles are measured. The materials, the craftsmanship and the tolerances of milspec rifles are designed for reliable, durable, consistent performance and have been proven over the last 50 plus years. A rifle that adheres to no known specs cannot lay claim to anything resembling their quality of materials, craftsmanship or tolerances let alone prove it.

Which is what I said from the outset and you vehemently and repeatedly disagreed with throughout this thread.



I'll ask (again) how do you quantify that statement? When you started this witch hunt mid-length gas systems weren't mil-spec, but we'd both agree (both then and now) that they're more than adequate. You'd actually argue that it's vastly superior and that the mil-spec of carbine length is actually crappy (which is kind of hilarious)
Again read above, without documented testing of materials craftsmanship and tolerances there is nothing to compare or validate to begin with.
As I posted before, midlength has been tested and is proven to be superior to carbine length. As I posted recently it is now the adopted gas system for the secret squirrel types. That would be a clue in some circles. I agree that by the milspec TDP a midlength gas system is not to spec(until recently). I would also argue that extensive testing has been done in the past to prove it to be superior to carbine. The only toelrance/dimension that is of concern is gas port size. Port location has no effect as it's the port size that determines reliability and overall function. Carbine gas ports are over sized and thus over gas the rifle, a lot.


Which (again) is what I said from the outset, and you continually attempted to refute. I would disagree that I own any "budget" rifles, but you're obviously projecting so I'll ignore it.
Projecting what? If it isn't milspec then it's simply a guess as to the quality of materials, craftsmanship and tolerances.


Actually, the concept of "quality", and intended use are largely synonymous. If someone wants to shoot a hundred rounds of .223 per year a $3000 HK MR223 won't serve them any better than a $600 M&P15. As a humourous side note, if they have some sort of parts breakage, they're actually better off with the $600 option than the HK, but I digress.

Uhhhh.. NO. Quality is not a synonym for "intended use". Here's a list of synonyms for the word quality.

A-OK, A1, awesome, bang-up, banner, beautiful, blue-chip, blue-ribbon, boffo, bonny (also bonnie) [chiefly British], boss [slang], brag, brave, bully, bumper, capital, choice, classic, cool [slang], corking, crackerjack, cracking, dandy, divine, dope [slang], down [slang], dynamite, fab, fabulous, famous, fantabulous [slang], fantastic, fine, first-class, first-rate, first-string, five-star, four-star, frontline, gangbusters (also gangbuster), gilt-edged (or gilt-edge), gone [slang], grand, great, groovy, heavenly, high-class, hot, hype [slang], immense, jim-dandy, keen, lovely, marvelous (or marvellous), mean, neat, nifty, noble, number one (also No. 1), numero uno, out-of-sight [slang], par excellence, peachy, peachy keen, phat [slang], prime, primo [slang], prize, prizewinning, excellent, radical [slang], righteous [slang], sensational, slick, splendid, stellar, sterling, superb, superior, superlative, supernal, swell, terrific, tip-top, top, top-flight, top-notch, top-of-the-line, topping [chiefly British], top-shelf, unsurpassed, wizard [chiefly British], wonderful

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/quality

Yeah, nowhere did I see the term "intended use" listed or mentioned.

Your example has nothing to do with the quality of the firearms. The M&P is nowhere near the quality(materials, craftsmanship, or tolerances) of the HK MR223. Again, both will serve the plinker just fine. The HK is still a far better built product and will likely never have a problem. Again, comparing item for item, the materials used, the craftsmanship involved and the tolerances adhered to are what is being compared. We are not comparing usage, personal taste, personal acceptance of poor materials/craftsmanship/tolerances. If you're ok with the cheaper product and believe it will serve you well or that any issues are acceptable for your uses, then drive on. HOWEVER, to make the claim that a non milspec rifle is EQUAL to a milspec rifle is both delusional and disingenuous.

In the green.

 

[Keodis]

I didn't read any of this thread other than the first post. OP, save your self the time and headache and get a Daniel Defense or a Knight's Armament, 16" barrel, MLOK handguard.

I think some Daniels can come carbine gas on a 16 so just make sure its a mid length and you're good to to.

For irons on the Daniel (KAC comes with irons), get the KAC 100-600 irons or the magpul pro irons (not the plastic ones).

Geissele the #### out of whatever you get, ACH charging handle, SSA-E trigger or whatever you prefer, maybe a maritime bolt catch?

Aimpoint, Trijicon, Elcan and Nightforce are your friends, Schmidt is amazing too but I wouldn't put one on an AR15. Don't look at Vortex and although Eotech's are cool, they are apparently junk and lie to law enforcement and military so #### them.

Oh yeah and for mags, use the magpul gen M3's or the Daniel mags. the pistol 10 round mags are ok too.

 

[rkm456]

In the green.

I was in the middle of a long winded, well thought out response. Then I realized you completely and utterly lack reading comprehension or the ability to be objective so I'm not going to bother

You're the most knowledgeable poster here. I apologize for daring to suggest you might not know as much as you think you do.

 

[Kidd X]

I didn't read any of this thread other than the first post. OP, save your self the time and headache and get a Daniel Defense or a Knight's Armament, 16" barrel, MLOK handguard.

I think some Daniels can come carbine gas on a 16 so just make sure its a mid length and you're good to to.

For irons on the Daniel (KAC comes with irons), get the KAC 100-600 irons or the magpul pro irons (not the plastic ones).

Geissele the #### out of whatever you get, ACH charging handle, SSA-E trigger or whatever you prefer, maybe a maritime bolt catch?

Aimpoint, Trijicon, Elcan and Nightforce are your friends, Schmidt is amazing too but I wouldn't put one on an AR15. Don't look at Vortex and although Eotech's are cool, they are apparently junk and lie to law enforcement and military so #### them.

Oh yeah and for mags, use the magpul gen M3's or the Daniel mags. the pistol 10 round mags are ok too.

DD only offers midlength unless you get their short barreled guns.

I was in the middle of a long winded, well thought out response. Then I realized you completely and utterly lack reading comprehension or the ability to be objective so I'm not going to bother

You're the most knowledgeable poster here. I apologize for daring to suggest you might not know as much as you think you do.

I doubt you were writing any lengthy response, you're reply is an attempt to add validity without providing content..

Nowhere did I say I was or am the most knowledgeable poster. I post what I know and I post facts.

 

[Keodis]

So now that I read some of this thread, you guys are arguing over mil spec vs non mil spec and the fact that KAC isn't mil spec so it might be ####? and saying Kidd X is a hypocrite?

Idk about you guys but when I think about mil spec I see it as a minimum standard to judge a rifle by if this rifle is going to be used in any capacity that involves self defense, law enforcement and military.

DD and KAC go above mil spec, they are better. And mil spec is nothing to be proud about, its ancient and the US army are very very very very slow in changing things. SOCOM is sweet because they always use new stuff.

The Geissele URG thats using a DD 14.5" midlength barrel with a Geissele Rail and ACH just accidentally happened and somehow wasn't mil spec? No it happened because the people behind the program know their ####.

Only good thing about mil spec is parts interchangeability, and if thats a big concern of yours then get a Daniel. Everything else is garbage in my opinion because even if you bought a Smith and wanted to eventually build it into a Daniel it would cost much more than just getting a Daniel

 

[r34skyline]

DD only offers midlength unless you get their short barreled guns.



I doubt you were writing any lengthy response, you're reply is an attempt to add validity without providing content..

Nowhere did I say I was or am the most knowledgeable poster. I post what I know and I post facts.

No i do believe dds m4a1 and their v11 lineup is carbine gas unless they revamped that lineup. Otherwise you are right most of their lineup is midlength.

So now that I read some of this thread, you guys are arguing over mil spec vs non mil spec and the fact that KAC isn't mil spec so it might be ####? and saying Kidd X is a hypocrite?

Idk about you guys but when I think about mil spec I see it as a minimum standard to judge a rifle by if this rifle is going to be used in any capacity that involves self defense, law enforcement and military.

DD and KAC go above mil spec, they are better. And mil spec is nothing to be proud about, its ancient and the US army are very very very very slow in changing things. SOCOM is sweet because they always use new stuff.

The Geissele URG thats using a DD 14.5" midlength barrel with a Geissele Rail and ACH just accidentally happened and somehow wasn't mil spec? No it happened because the people behind the program know their ####.

Only good thing about mil spec is parts interchangeability, and if thats a big concern of yours then get a Daniel. Everything else is garbage in my opinion because even if you bought a Smith and wanted to eventually build it into a Daniel it would cost much more than just getting a Daniel

That's a bit of a stretch, I don't think a bcm or lmt gives up anything to a dd. At least not performance wise.

I do agree with your statement about mil spec being a minimum requirenent.

 

[Keodis]

No i do believe dds m4a1 and their v11 lineup is carbine gas unless they revamped that lineup. Otherwise you are right most of their lineup is midlength.



That's a bit of a stretch, I don't think a bcm or lmt gives up anything to a dd. At least not performance wise.

I do agree with your statement about mil spec being a minimum requirenent.

I dislike some of the things BCM does, Daniel rails and barrels are better, I also dont like the BCM stock. Don't know much about LMT but I do know they are not popular around here and I'm willing to bet a Daniel is a better gun.

 

[THESEUS]

Following thread

 

[rkm456]

DD only offers midlength unless you get their short barreled guns.

I post what I know and I post facts.

Daniel Defense sells both 14.5 and 16 inch guns with carbine gas systems.

 

[rkm456]

I dislike some of the things BCM does, Daniel rails and barrels are better, I also dont like the BCM stock. Don't know much about LMT but I do know they are not popular around here and I'm willing to bet a Daniel is a better gun.

What in your opinion makes a DD barrel superior to a BCM?

 

[edgy]

I dislike some of the things BCM does, Daniel rails and barrels are better, I also dont like the BCM stock. Don't know much about LMT but I do know they are not popular around here and I'm willing to bet a Daniel is a better gun.

Dude, you are late to the party,,,,please stop now,,,,don't give either of them any more to post about!!!!!
My god,,, this crap has 24 pages of " IM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG"
LET THIS THREAD DIE FFS!!!!
EVERY SINGLE OPINION HAS BEEN OFFERED AND ARGUED,,,,,GIVE IT UP,,, YOU ARE WORSE THAN A BUNCH OF 5 YEAR OLDS
The OP probably bought his first AR in NOVEMBER ffs and hasn't looked at this in two months,,,and still it persists