europe have seen some wars were sks where used. and i still know old fighters that sold the ak47 to keep the sks only and for a reason magazine. you need a mag to run an ak ... the sks d was made for the us market not for the military ...
Ahh the great SKS vs Type 81 debate... Time to PROVE IT!
- Thread starter Murray 3-D
- Start date
europe have seen some wars were sks where used. and i still know old fighters that sold the ak47 to keep the sks only and for a reason magazine. you need a mag to run an ak ... the sks d was made for the us market not for the military ...
It punched a lot of "holes" in Vietnam, Iraq and in Afghanistan. It punched holes so well infact, that the Soviets decided to develop their own version of it.
Funny how NATO hasent adopted ur .22 yet. U should present them with ur concept haha
It was not exactly like Soviets decided "this is cool round, let's have our own version". Tendency for reducing the military calibers (and reducing the power of the cartridge) was dominating up until recent times in all progressive (I feel dirty using P-word) armies. In fact because of some stupid generals in US whole NATO stuck with full size 7.62 and was having "fun" with full auto M14s, while com-bloc started moving to intermediate 7.62 with acceptance of M43 (Soviet copy-cat of German 7.92x33 Kurtz) and AK and SKS in 1949 and as result had handy and compact assault rifles and LMGs. Now, of course Soviets were contemplating further reduction of caliber and power and of course they were inspired by positive results of NATO accepting 5.56. It's just not an easy task to change firearm system for the biggest army in the world.
As for punching holes. Small calibers 5.45 (and I assume 5.56) inflict worse wounds (compared to 7.62x39) (Soviets even tested 5.45 on cadavers to find it out). Benefits of small round (including increase of number of carried rounds from 200 to 300) overweighed its drawbacks (tendency to ricochet in certain circumstances among them) at the time of acceptance. Drawback of poor armour penetration was quickly resolved with introduction of new types of projectiles. Now we have new generations of armour and we have new problem, that we need to increase the power of the round and thus we need to increase the caliber, thus all these talks of going bigger... neverending competition of the arms and armour.
The US military needed one million rounds of ammo per kill in Vietnam, in case you didn't know.
The only advantage is that an AR is light and also ammo is light to carry compared to 7.62.x39.
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It's actually 50,000 per kill in Vietnam, and compare to 45,000 in WW2. Not that a big difference?
Consider also the following facts: it was WWI when first time artillery killed more, than bullets. In modern warfare small arms are shifting towards PDW role, like handguns for officers back in time. Not completely there, but shifting.
And this - when you kill the enemy, you disable only one enemy, when you wound him - you disable several and put financial and organizational burden on the other side. This is just in case you still think small caliber is less lethal, which is not.
P.S. I still like intermediate, especially considering how few options we have with small caliber in Canada since the last round of bans. What do we have of military origin? Tavors and x95 for small caliber. What do we have for intermediate? SKS and Type 81. First two are bullpups and not many folks like bullpups and latter two are quite outdated. Sad state of affairs.
Consider also the following facts: it was WWI when first time artillery killed more, than bullets. In modern warfare small arms are shifting towards PDW role, like handguns for officers back in time. Not completely there, but shifting.
And this - when you kill the enemy, you disable only one enemy, when you wound him - you disable several and put financial and organizational burden on the other side. This is just in case you still think small caliber is less lethal, which is not.
P.S. I still like intermediate, especially considering how few options we have with small caliber in Canada since the last round of bans. What do we have of military origin? Tavors and x95 for small caliber. What do we have for intermediate? SKS and Type 81. First two are bullpups and not many folks like bullpups and latter two are quite outdated. Sad state of affairs.
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- Location
- Alberta, North America
SKS + T33 are Canadian treasures because: they are fairly inexpensive- reasonable to buy, easy to get ammo and they friggin work all day + pretty much most weather + environmental conditions ... Glocks shoot well underwater however but very loud in the ears!!
Everyone should at least have one of each for fun + protection.
Everyone should at least have one of each for fun + protection.
Thats a dumb and totally redundant figure to mention. With that notion ur suggesting every platoon that set out into the jungle needed to carry 10 million rounds on them to wack 10 enemy soldiers ? Lol
The modern militarys of today switched to the "hole puncher" rounds cus for a trade off in rarely used excessive stopping power their soldiers would now have lighter, cheaper ammo, higher mag capacities, flatter ballistics and more controllable recoil allowing for better follow up shots.
This advantage is demonstrated by history, the militarys un changed doctrine, competitive shooting and events like the Cabin Fever Challenge were ARs and other guns that fire "hole puncher" rounds tend to hold the top scores.
You are not good at math, are you?
Your AR is gone, no matter what.
Why are there always people like you trying to hijack threads and come up with something from the past and their vast experience.
Sure next thing you tell us that you were a special ops member in Afghanistan with many successful missions.
Guy, it's his thread. If anyone is hijacking it, it's you with your ridiculous "Nobody needs an AR when they have a 22" derp talk. We get it, you don't like ARs. Probably don't like anything unless it had a wood stock too hey?
the wound and the kill was i think a misinterpreation of the reality of war. when i was trained in the military i never been train to wound and do not remember any excercises we did with nato forces where we aim to wound ...
I am well aware that the D models were , according to the internet, made for civilian markets and have never stated otherwise..... though you seem to like to throw that one out there frequently in these threads. I simply wonder what other countries may have purchased those commercially made SKS-D rifles for use in various insurgencies and ethnic wars. I'm sure nobody here has that answer and shouldn't pretend too.
as for the AR family of rifles...... they have no place in this discussion as those rifles are obviously not T81 nor are they sks rifles so not sure why the AR was even brought up here.
This !!
This BS myth need to stop being repeated. Heard it so many times in 17 years, never once from someone who had served/still serving.
How did the AR get dragged into a friendly thread about having fun with sone x39 spitting rifle anyway ?! I absolutely love my ARs and this is the rifle I’d pick in an all out SHTF/MAD MAX scenario. At this point, whatever you have is better than having nothing. But I’m pretty sure we still have the Black Rifle section to talk about our ARs...
Having shot both at 100m, SKS and T81 got very similar results with the same ammo (chinese corrosive copper plated FMJ) and the results were always between 2 and 3 MOA. Both were shot out to 300m and all hits were on a Fig11. To me, it says good enough for anything.
T81 has the advantage of running detachable magazines which is definitely an advantage. If we could have 10 rounds in the SKS, feeding from stripper clips can be almost just as quick than changing an AK/T81 magazine.
Looking forward to March to try the Cabin Fever Challenge. I’m thinking of using 4 targets to show how horrible each of my groupings will be. Iron sights and no sling, fun times
And for those within driving range of QC City, if the situation allows it, I’m planning to hold an SKS match this summer in a format familiar to the Army rundown (100m to 300m various positions and less than 200 rounds). Stay tuned
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I'll give it a go on my next set of days off. I have two shooter SKS I can compare to two T-81s.
