Ak-47?

A Man Apart

A Man Apart

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Just curious here, and this must be redundant, but I couldn't find anything else on here from a brief search.

I was curious as to why the AK-47 wasn't adopted in North America for use? I'm no firearms expert, but with the seemingly excellent potential for successful "engagement capabilities" in specific situations, would it not be adventageous to have at LE/Military disposal?

Or is the age/design/materials used totally obselete now? Is this weapon not much more effective potentially than the standard rifle used in the military/LE?

I have the feeling I'm gonna get schooled bigtime here, but one learns by asking.
 
The AK is a loose tolerance firearm, which hampers it ability to sustain accuracy. North America had no real access to the design for some years after its introduction. Around the same time Mr. Stoner designed the AR15/M16 platform and we all know what happened after that.

Aside from the historical reasons against adoption there are also characteristic choices as well. The AR platform is far more ergonomic, accurate, weighs less and as of recent is far more modular and adaptable to the shooter and the role it is being deployed in. Ammo weighs less which facilitates carrying more for the same weight penalty as 7.62x39 or 7.62x51.

TDC
 
Aah, I've learned about the lack of accuracy for sure now...Is the M16 as durable through anything as the AK is?

Sheer power isn't worth beans if you can't hit the target. Perhaps making the M16 more powerful might be the key, but that may be at a cost to another aspect of the rifle.

'Gotta admit, the AK is a BEAST in appearance. One guy called it a "###y" weapon. Heck, I call it a vision of death.

Eerily enough though it is visually appealing for some reason.
 
LOL....Let me explain - It is the unique look of an AK that makes my nerves peek from all the stuff I've seen on tv over the years...That's all.

The media here have done that to my opinion. I love the look personally, and would almost take one over an M16 depending on the mission.

Again, I'm new to this, so bare with me. ;) So can someone in Canada not buy an AK now? What's the word on that?
 
AK doesnt lack accuracy, just bad ammo made with ####ty tolerances and bad sights for precision shooting, plus alot of badly made rifles out there from various countries. A modern russian AK in 5.56 shoots as good as a carbine AR from all the groups I have seen of people in the states shooting theirs.
 
Don't forget that the SIG 550 is basically a reworked AK. It is plenty acrit. The AK was meant to be churned out by the millions ala the PPSH. The Russians did well with hordes of soldiers firing in full auto with the old 41's
 
FWIW -- Virtually noone who can run an M4 or an AK will run an AK...

The round sucks and the ergonomics suck.

Mind you one of our guys shot an insurgent 9 times with a Sig552 so one needs to remember M855 out of a 9" bbl is bad juju as well.
but-- then he took the ####bags PKM and mopped up...
 
A Man Apart said:
LOL....Let me explain - It is the unique look of an AK that makes my nerves peek from all the stuff I've seen on tv over the years...That's all.

The media here have done that to my opinion. I love the look personally, and would almost take one over an M16 depending on the mission.

Again, I'm new to this, so bare with me. ;) So can someone in Canada not buy an AK now? What's the word on that?
Click to expand...

The AK-47 is symbol of communism therefore the west would never use one during cold war times and even now after the collapse of the Soviet Empire,it's also portrayed by the media as a symbol of the enemy,rebelion & terrorists.The M-16 on the other hand is seen as the "saveour" (sp?) or freedom and democracy/liberty.

In Canada the AK-47 and all variants are prohibited meaning only people who legally possesed one before 1978 got grandfather status on their FAC or PAL and therefore cannot take it out of their home to use:

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/default_e.asp
 
Scarecrow said:
AK doesnt lack accuracy, just bad ammo made with s**tty tolerances and bad sights for precision shooting, plus alot of badly made rifles out there from various countries. A modern russian AK in 5.56 shoots as good as a carbine AR from all the groups I have seen of people in the states shooting theirs.
Click to expand...



I beg to differ. Ever shoot an AK over an SKS? Same ammo with all things equal (barrel length aside), the AK does not compare to it. :confused:
 
Dont forget that the M43 ball fmj round overpenetrates...bad idea when dealing with potential hostage situation...hit the bad guy and the bullet continues out the body and hits a soccer mom or blue collar daddy.

If I am not mistaken it does the same thing with soft points and hollow points too.

Another point which not a lot of people have hit upon is that one of the other reliability factors in the AK, is because the casings are made from steel rather than brass. Considering how brutal the AK loading mech is to brass casings, they tend to bend at the neck because of this and sometimes jam up.

Leading into the next main point in the steel casing realm is the fact that the major suppliers of such steel casing ammunition for the M43, tend only to make FMJ ball...hollow point and soft point steel casing cartridges are not easy to come by for someone sourcing ammo through the RCMP or other LEO detachments.

:)
 
I think a lot of it boils down to the two fundamentally different philosophies embodied by the USA & the USSR during the Cold War. The Soviets idealized their "peasant" origins and chose to build large, blocky & utterly reliable small arms that individual draftees straight off the farm could learn how to use and maintain with little instruction/training. With the use of steel stampings, the Kalashnikov design was easy to mass produce, & with generous tolerances built into it, it became a very forgiving firearm in terms of maintenance requirements. Those same tolerances which made it such a good "battle" rifle (although its 7.62X39mm is actually an intermediate cartridge) are also at the root of its lack of accuracy. Tighten up those tolerances and pay closer attention to manufactureing methods and materials and you get variants like the Valmet, & SIG 55X line that are uber reliable AND accurate.

The Americans, on the other hand, with their great love for technology chose quality over quantity. They built a quasi-target rifle, with extremely close tolerances that permitted the rifle to be effectively used out to 600M and beyond; no matter that most combat engagements took place under 100M. Those close tolerances yielded a rifle with great accuracy potential, but it also served to create a greater necessity for proper care and maintenance.

I guess it all came down to a question or priorities & your basic cost/benefit analysis based upon each power's subjective world view. I think the M-16 is the superior weapons platform in terms of ergonomics, accuracy and combat performance today. At the same time, I'd love to add a legal AK-47 to my collection but it isn't going to happen anytime soon given the assbackwards nature of Canadian politics.
 
peckerwood said:
Another point which not a lot of people have hit upon is that one of the other reliability factors in the AK, is because the casings are made from steel rather than brass. Considering how brutal the AK loading mech is to brass casings, they tend to bend at the neck because of this and sometimes jam up.
Click to expand...


Way back in wonderland,I used to alternate between the small amounts of Chinese copper washed steel and brass PMC soft point x39-I've never had a failure or a jam with the brass cased PMC.Though the Chinese stuff was cheaper and I tended to hoard the PMC stuff.Thousands of rounds later and no issues.The AK action is brutal and casings were dinged regularly on ejection.The only fix to this if you reload is a Valmet case buffer that clips to the top cover-if you can find one they work fine.
I have fired several 56S rifles that will hold 4"-6" MOA at 100,and one Polytech milled AK that is usually minute of barn to matter what ammo I fired through it.The exception to this is a Hungarian AKM which can hold 2"MOA...
Since we are now in prohib land I've transgressed to the AR.They handle better,accuracy is better,and with proper maitenance work ok...but...if I had a choice between an AR,Galil,Valmet,or other AK variant in 5.56....hmmmmm..
 
I got the word from friends in Alaska who fired Winchester brass, Federal brass, some PMC brass, Czech Steel(unknown but from czech military case), Russian Steel(wolf), and Chinese steel(norinco), and some Sellier and Bellot steel.

Winchester by far was the worst...casings bent right at the neck, with the bullets easily wiggling and coming loose from the resulting jams.

Federal came in second place with similar bent casings and similar jams but on a level of only 1/3 or less of the Winchester jam #

PMC worked well but sometimes there were slight bends and crinks at the case neck...but generally no major malfunctions

Russian Wolf ammo worked flawless

Czech surplus worked flawless but did show signs of wear and small denting

Sellier and Bellot worked the same as the Russian

Chinese Norinco wasn't on par with the Russian, Czech or the S&B...it had some case bends and dents from chambering...but no major failures

Rifles were I believe Iszmash Arsenal Russian AK47...I believe the date was 1950's? A Romanian G model AK 1970's...and Yugo M70 from the late 70's

All of the runs were done back in the late 90's...so some manufacturing processes may have changed since then or prior to.
 
OneBarfly said:
I beg to differ. Ever shoot an AK over an SKS? Same ammo with all things equal (barrel length aside), the AK does not compare to it. :confused:
Click to expand...

I Get to differ too. When I was shooting my Hungarian SA-85, I was outdoing my
Chinese and Yugo SKS @100m using the same Norc ammo.

PS: Sorry SA85M1 I didn't read your post carefully ;)
 
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I got the word from friends in Alaska who fired Winchester brass, Federal brass, some PMC brass, Czech Steel(unknown but from czech military case), Russian Steel(wolf), and Chinese steel(norinco), and some Sellier and Bellot steel.

Winchester by far was the worst...casings bent right at the neck, with the bullets easily wiggling and coming loose from the resulting jams.

Federal came in second place with similar bent casings and similar jams but on a level of only 1/3 or less of the Winchester jam #

PMC worked well but sometimes there were slight bends and crinks at the case neck...but generally no major malfunctions



That's the rub 'eh.....Those bloody Yanks get to play with everything!!;) Since combloc ammo is steel and better suited to the AK's action, it only makes sense that brass cased stuff will get smushed from time to time.I have seen an SKS split Remington x39 casings and then run fine with stinky old Nork ammo...:)
 
Speckfire said:
I Get to differ too. When I was shooting my Hungarian SA-85, I was outdoing my
Chinese and Yugo SKS @100m using the same Norc ammo.

PS: Sorry SA85M1 I didn't read your post carefully ;)
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Yes, I have an SA85 Hungarian AKM as well. Now resigned to the safe. I didn't want to compare this particular rifle because it has other issues particular to the semi-auto design. I stand behind my statement that AK/AKM accuracy is inferior to that of the average SKS.
 
OneBarfly said:
Yes, I have an SA85 Hungarian AKM as well. Now resigned to the safe. I didn't want to compare this particular rifle because it has other issues particular to the semi-auto design. I stand behind my statement that AK/AKM accuracy is inferior to that of the average SKS.
Click to expand...


There are 2 people on this board who are saying otherwise who also happen to have the same rifle as you do. Maybe there is something wrong with yours ;) :D
 
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