AK vs AR vs FAL

Bratwurst said:
To put it simply: Several nations with circa 1.4 Billion or more people with government funding produced 100 million or more AKs of various patterns over a 44 year period. Communist taxpayer funded not private sector.

That makes them cheap for other nations/communist groups to purchase. Or cheap for them to be given away as aid.

1989 onwards all of a sudden Capitslism is back, former USSR nations economies have had their GDP literally cut in half. They need money, have a lot of AKs and very weak currencies. Ta da, cheap AKs continue.

Today 29 years after the collapse of the USSR and Yugoslavia a large number of these AKs are sold. The armouries are being emptied and modern rifles are replacing them.

Very few people are making AKs in substantial numbers for the civilian market. Surplus is gone or limited/prices inflated in some markets by legal restrictions (922r/sporting purpose etc) or import bans (China / North Korea).

Lots are completely worn out, AKs are great but 50 years use in conflicts across Africa/Asia/South America will wear a gun out. Many AKs are scrap metal now.

The AR uses a completely different method of manufacture and is in far higher demand across Western markets.

Its not a POS it's a fantastic firearms for it's time.

Next time think before you type. The internet is full of rubbish/rumours/falsehood because people make statements like you did without ever thinking them through or doing research.
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Bold is the important part. 70 years ago this conversation would be different.

Today, through all the evolution, the ar15 is a much superior weapons platform for multiple reasons. Ergonomics,
Modularity, upgradability/accessories.

I don't think anyone can deny that the ar15 has evolved into a much superior weapons system over the past ~70 years. Those that do, either haven't been paying attention or are in denial.

I appreciate the AK for what it is, but it's not even in the same zip code as today's ar15's.
 
Dietz said:
I know but WW1 was literally one big mud pit.
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Not true, we musn't forget the Middle Eastern Campaigns, the Africa Campaigns, Mountain warfare and the urban conflicts.

We often (and I hold my hand up here too) are too focused on the Western Front. How many of us know anything about the Austro-Hungarian efforts? or the Eastern Front? How many of us could really mention anything about the fighting in Italy or Iraq?
 
One of the bulldozers uncovered the decomposing body of an enemy soldier, complete with AK47. I happened to be standing right there, looking down into the hole and pulled the AK out of the bog. "Watch this, guys," I said, "and I'll show you how a real infantry weapon works." I pulled the bolt back and fired 30 rounds - the AK could have been cleaned that day rather than buried in glug for a year or so. That was the kind of weapon our soldiers needed, not the confidence-sapping M-16. ~ David Hackworth, US Army battallion commander, Vietnam War. In About Face, The Macmillan Company of Australia
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In case anybody wondering who David Hackworth is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hackworth

I've heard a somewhat similar story from a Soviet Afghan vet I knew where they found a rusty AK in the bottom of a flooded shell crater they'd drained as they reclaimed an old firebase. The wood furniture was rotted away and the action was rusted solid but they poured oil in it and managed to get it unstuck by kicking down on the charging handle "like a kickstarter". They shook out what dirt they could, as they weren't able to disassemble it, loaded a mag, and it worked.
 
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Bratwurst said:
Not true, we musn't forget the Middle Eastern Campaigns, the Africa Campaigns, Mountain warfare and the urban conflicts.

We often (and I hold my hand up here too) are too focused on the Western Front. How many of us know anything about the Austro-Hungarian efforts? or the Eastern Front? How many of us could really mention anything about the fighting in Italy or Iraq?
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You're right.
 
Well, this thread has been fun. Perhaps in honor of it I will go shoot my suppressed ar15 this weekend.

pgfoSf7


You guys enjoy shooting your AK47 and variants. Oh wait...
 
870P said:
In case anybody wondering who David Hackworth is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hackworth

I've heard a somewhat similar story from a Soviet Afghan vet I knew where they found a rusty AK in the bottom of a flooded shell crater they'd drained as they reclaimed an old firebase. The wood furniture was rotted away and the action was rusted solid but they poured oil in it and managed to get it unstuck by kicking down on the charging handle "like a kickstarter". They shook out what dirt they could, as they weren't able to disassemble it, loaded a mag, and it worked.
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We have to also be very careful with personsl anecdotes and written stories.

Without meaning to tarnish anyone's reputation personal records of war sre very unreliable.

If you go on youtube and watch "who lied more? Soldiers vs Generals" by the channel "Military History Not Visualised" for great examples of what can influence these books.
 
guess_kto said:
I watched video of russian gunsmith called "the top 5 worst AKs" and as far as I remember the worst were Iraqi, Chinese, American, and 2 other I forgot about... However, no matter how good or bad design is, the production quality can make a huge difference.
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But you can take the cheapest crap AR you want and it would still pass that mud test. Maybe quality makes a slight difference however, it shows the AR is a superior design by far. Any gun that gets dirt it it will fail to operate properly and the AR;s design doesn't let dirt in and any dirt that gets on the bolt carrier is blown off from the gas vent holes on the side of the bolt carrier. AK fans will be in denial though because their favorite gun has onboard cleaning rod that is too short for barrel.
 
That's just supply and demand, not value.
I had experience with 47s and 74s, last time just several years ago, and that were original late Soviet manufacture rifles, not clones and not US bubba builds. That was in a role of service weapon /PDW. Now for matches last 6 or so years I've been using AR15 and sometimes cz858. Unfortunately no experience with original M4. Add to this my hobby is firearm development history. I like to learn how things work and try it in person. And I can read and speak in three languages. These things kind of give me certain advantage to learn about and to judge about platforms. None is perfect, none is POS. Both outdated, but increadibly reliable as both were perfected by numerous generations and real life application. Their cons and pros belong to different areas. Where one shines, another is stupidly lacking. And vice versa. Theoretically thinking there could be cases where I would pick up AR for personal use, but there are also cases where I would rather be with AK... It's really sad we can't own original M4s, original AKs. And dozens of newer designs, conveniently prohibited by name. Had we have access to all above many people would have changed their opinion, that is currently based mostly on entertainment videos and common myths.
 
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TV-PressPass said:
Is it Vickers who’s credited with that quote?
“The AK is more accurate than people think, and the AR more reliable.”
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In fall 1976 I met a Lebanese guy on the bus. We'd both been in the army over the summer - me in Canada and him in Beirut. He liked the Russian artillery because it never broke, but the American ones killed more.
 
maple_leaf_eh said:
In fall 1976 I met a Lebanese guy on the bus. We'd both been in the army over the summer - me in Canada and him in Beirut. He liked the Russian artillery because it never broke, but the American ones killed more.
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I'm 52 now and had friends from Blackwatch regiment spend 3-4 years in British Army during which time they patrolled Northern Ireland's "Bandit Country".
The regular British forces used FN FAL against IRA's AKs and were regularly outgunned.
In the meantime, British Special Forces and other security forces used AR15s, CAR15s, HK53 and had no issues with IRA AKs.
As for reliability, in the 80, US Marines found 30 years old Egyptian Army AKs far more reliable than US M16 and the same was relearned in the First Gulf War.

They're big takeaway was that at short to medium range, a battle rifle is no match for an assault rifle...
(The same lesson the Soviet infantry learned when dealing with German infantry equipped with Stg44)

Alex
 
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