Another what if question.........

[1899]

My lighter weight "walking" rifle is a 300WSM, I use it because I have confidence in it and like the rifle, for a 1 gun arsenal I would pick my 375H&H because thats my preference.

The faster cartridges will will shoot a bit flatter and buck the wind a bit better but 2 cartridges within the same "performance window" will have very similar effects after hitting the animal, to say 100fps will make a noticable difference on game is strictly an opinion, the conditions are never reproducable, until the technology is here that lets you shoot a game animal then rewind and take the same shot with a different rifle all the "noticeable effect on game" talk will be strictly opinion.

Exactly. I have seen deer drop instantly from a .250 Savage and run a fair ways after hit with a 7mm RM and .300 WM - all with similar hits. What is the reason? There are so many factors, who knows? And all of it goes back to my original point. I've shot medium and large game with bullets from 75gr to 400gr, in calibers from .257" to .416" and it is really for the most part hard to see a difference in performance. For example, I defy anyone to watch a deer standing broadside and be able to identify from it's reaction to the shot whether it was shot with a 130gr out of a .270 Win, a 160gr out of a 7mm RM, a 200gr out of a .300 WM, a 250gr out of a .338 WM etc etc.

Some people today have been brainwashed into thinking that something new is required; or that something new is better. How on earth did the experienced old timers even get by 40 years ago? Shooting moose and elk with plain old cup and core bullets out of .270's and .30-06s, and they STILL got their game. My dad shot his first moose with a .25-06 and Winchester 120gr PEP. There was no fuss or muss. I remember shooting game with a 7mm RM and 150gr Imperial PSP ammo from Army & Navy. Deer died quickly after being hit. So did moose. We chronographed that load +25 years ago. Out of a 25.5" barrel we were seeing....hold on to your hats now ladies and gentlement...just over 2700fps. The guy beside us at the range laughed and said he was doing that out of his 7mm-08. So we bought reloading gear.

The simple fact of the matter is that marksmanship and knowledge of your prey's anatomy is paramount. You could go and grab any box of plain jane 130gr .270 Win. or 180gr .30/06 ammo and fill all of your tags (of course that would not be nearly as fun for most of us!). Practice, practice, practice. My friend and I burned through almost 200 rounds each in our BG rifles just in the few months leading up to this season. And we are ramping it up for next year.

 

[1899]

I'm not arguing anything. Truth be known, I am not a big fan of any 270, be it WSM or otherwise. I am a big fan of having a rifle and cartridge combo that I am comfortable with and confidence that it can get the job done. It matters not if it is 100fps slower or faster, nor whether it burns 4¢ more or less powder. And I've rarely shot more than 1 round at big game, and never more than 2.

But a man with your experience already knows it's the shooter and the rifle, not a few grains of powder or bullet weight when it comes to most hunting situations, right?

Have you read this whole thread? Did you even see what I responded to and why? Because, in the end you are saying exactly what I am saying. It really looks like you are being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.

 

[kman300]

The .300 WSM is usually compared to the .300 WM, the 7mm WSM is usually compared to the 7mm RM while the .270 WSM is compared to the .270 Win.

Since most folks these days are into the Barnes TSX/TTSX, take a look.


Top loads:
.270 Win
130gr TTSX - 59.5gr RL19 giving 3211fps
140gr TTSX - 56.5gr IMR4350 giving 3050fps
150gr TSX - 60.5gr RL22 giving 3000fps

.270 WSM
130gr TTSX - 74.0gr MagPro giving 3260fps
140gr TSX - 70.5gr MagPro giving 3125fps
150gr TSX - 69.0gr Magnum giving 3030fps

So on average the WSM burns an extra 22% of powder for 30 - 75fps increase in velocity. Even if it gave an extra 100-150fps, so what? A 100fps advantage at the muzzle with 130gr bullets will give you less than 100 ft-lbs energy difference at 500 yards.

The .270 Win is a very balanced cartridge and I stand by my view that the WSM gives no practical advantage. In fact the WSM brings lots of negatives to the table. It burns much, much more powder. With the above noted 130gr loads the WSM uses 24% more powder, has 20.5% more recoil and gives 1.5% more velocity - which isn't worth anything. Brass costs more, is harder to find. Rifles in th WSM generally carry 2 or 3 in the magazine vs 4 or 5 for the regular .270 Win.

I can't see any upside at all to the WSM. If I wanted a hotter .270, I'd get a .270 Wby and call Why Not? who would give me his 130gr Partition at 3500fps load.

A couple things need to be said here just to be sure the whole story is told.

270 win vs 270 wsm, fun discussion and people will always pull reloading data and present that to strengthen their argument that the 270 wsm isn't a worth while upgrade over the 270 win.

1. The loads you posted for the 270 win are from 24" barrels. Winchester fwt, extreme weather, tikka t3 lite, xbolt etc all have 22" barrels. So right there you are losing ~50fps. I'm sure there are 24" 270's out there but most popular hunting rifles in that caliber have 22" barrels.

2. RL19, 22 lose lots of fps in cold weather (actual hunting temperatures are not the same as a nice warm ballistics lab). So it doesn't really do you any good if you get 3200fps out of a 24" 270 winchester in the summer and when it's -15C you lose ~150fps due to cold weather and another ~50 cause you really only have a 22" version. Do you reload for your 270 winchester? Do you chronograph your loads in cold (hunting weather) to see how fast they are actually going when it counts?

3. MagPro. Often cited as the super powder for the 270 win, again in a 24" barrel. Where do you get this powder? Neither wss, nor cabelas carry it. How much fps does it lose in cold weather? Again, I'm sure some stores have it but the majority of people can't simply walk into a store and buy some.

4. Lets look at the hodgdon reloading website and use some temperature stable powder that I have personally tested +30 to -30. I know I will get very close in cold weather to what I get in warm weather and frankly when comparing hunting rifles/calibers/bullets the only thing that should matter is the speed they can achieve in the temperatures that you are actually out there chasing critters.

270 winchester 130 GR. BAR TSX Hodgdon H4350 .277" 3.230" 51.0 2905 52,500 PSI 55.5 3111 63,500 PSI

270 wsm 130 GR. BAR TSX Hodgdon H4350 .277" 2.800" 57.0 3041 55,700 PSI 61.5 3191 62,900 PSI

270 wsm gets 80fps more at lower pressure using 10% more powder. We can assume that if we ran the 270 wsm at the same pressure the difference would be bigger. Recoil in a 8lbs gun is ~18 ft/lbs. Hardly worth worrying about the difference between the wsm and win in terms of recoil.

BTW crappy winchester 270gr wsm 150gr power points chronographed 3140fps in my 270 wsm a7 when I still had it.

So in closing, if you are using a 270 winchester that has a 22" barrel, as most popular hunting rifles in this caliber have these days, and you are using a temp stable powder the difference is ~150fps. Someone else mentioned this in the thread and I concur with this person.

Now is an extra 150fps worth anything to you? 308, 30/06, 300 h&h, 300 win mag, 300 wby/rum all have about 150fps on each other. Does it mean anything? To some people it does, and to others it doesn't. I have had 308, 30/06, 300 wby and 300 rum. I have a 300 wsm now and it does everything I need in a 30 cal. Don't have the other ones anymore.

I find it important to tell the whole story (powder, barrel length etc) when you pull reloading data and post it to argue your point that the wsm doesn't really improve on the 270 short.

BTW if we look at nosler data for the 270win vs 270 wsm with 130gr bullets (partition, accubond) the 270 win only gets ~3000fps while the 270 wsm is 3250+. Both with 24" barrels btw.

 

[1899]

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[1899]

kman300 - I agree with most of your post - which was well thought out. Thanks for taking the time to make an intelligent post.

 

[Cleftwynd]

Actually there is a lot of great info in this thread! At least for me it has been quite informative!

 

[Highwind]

In southern Ontario it would likely be the 270 wsm. Not too many moose there, and I would see the 270 wsm as adequate for moose anyways. Having looked at the Hornady reloading manual for the 270 wsm, gives some useful data that provides enough options for hand loaders to spice up their pet loads. It can reach out there, but most shots in Southern Ontario would be rarely beyond 300 yards. In my circumstances I find that the 243 wssm is a great deer rifle and does all that I expect it to do.