Anschutz 64 Ignition Troubleshooting

[Leuchtkafer]

When I tested out the new IBI barrel a few months ago in the winter, I noted an excessive amount of Fail-To-Fire. I chalked it up to the cold at the time. It is no longer winter and the issue persists. This warranted further investigation. I harvested a box of once-fired cases for testing/diagnosis purposes. Oddly enough, there was not a single malfunction with this ammo, SK Semi-Auto. Some ammo has more failures than others, the worst offender is RWS Rifle Match and this crosses over to my CZ PRS rifle. This issue could be slightly complex, combining firing pin penetration and headspace sensitive to rim thickness, given tight below SAAMI spec headspace which may be crushing some rims, possibly disturbing priming compound. This is a work in progress and I will go through the data and results as I document them. I haven't measured the ammo yet to gain any insight into rim thickness correlation to the malfunctions, but I will do so in the near future.

I performed a case head penetration test is several conditions; As-Is uncleaned, given I've had the rifle some 8-9 years and never fully disassembled the bolt to clean and lubricate. This involves punching out a cross pin so it's not user-friendly regular maintenance, Anschutz just says add a drop of oil to the striker pin exposed at the cocking piece end. I need a baseline to determine what effect any work from here that I do has. Second test cleaned, lubricated and polished, but installed unintentionally in the opposite orientation. It shouldn't matter since the part should be symmetrical, but it did make a difference. Cleaned, lubricated, polished in original orientation, and finally with a new striker spring. Here is the data.



This is the test setup, I positioned the once-fired case with the hit at the 6-o'clock orientation in the chamber, then held the trigger and gently closed the bolt so the firing pin would rest on the rim. I set the dial indicator to zero. I re-cocked and "fired". The difference between the readings is the case head penetration.



"Fired"



Disassembly



In the following two images I note some wear on the striker pin that I can catch a fingernail on, and the diameter is reduced by 0.0005" in the area shown in the second image.





A breakdown of the bolt parts



After polishing, there are gouges revealed that are too deep to practically remove without major alteration to the spec dimensions



A gouge formed on the opposite side from only 10 "firings" when the pin was installed in the other orientation. This suggests the pin is made of inappropriate metal for the application or a bad batch, either way, not impressed.



Here's where I'm at; Cleaning, lubricating, polishing and even a new spring made effectively no difference in ignition consistency or penetration depth. The gouges formed/forming in the striker pin seem to be the primary issue. The number I get for "penetration" is not definitive, it is relative. There are a variety of ways to test and measure penetration, what matters is for whatever method one uses, one notes the number where Fail-To-Fire occurs and the number where there are no malfunctions.

My plan now is to manufacture a new striker pin part #002832 out of a harder grade of steel and with modified dimensions to compress the spring a little more. This is to store more energy and thus get my penetration up to 0.020". I would like the ES of penetration to be 0.001" or less, zero or a few tenths would be ideal but being a SAP design (Spring Around Pin), this is not likely. We'll see what I can get. I will also shave 0.006" off the shoulder stop of part #002827, this is to ensure that the shoulder is 0.010" off the mechanical stop at maximum case penetration, as per Bill Calfee's recommendations. Hey, another project side quest lmfao I can't ignore this though, it is important.

 

[_Shorty]

What does the impression look like on a fired case? I don't think you mentioned shape of the end of the firing pin as a possible issue.

 

[Leuchtkafer]

What does the impression look like on a fired case? I don't think you mentioned shape of the end of the firing pin as a possible issue.

It's a standard Anschutz round tip pin, nothing looks out of the ordinary in the impression. I can't see how the shape of the pin would matter in terms of making the cartridge go *bang*, unless damage to the tip occurred giving it a larger footprint that the spring can't drive to the required penetration anymore because of the larger surface area, but there is no damage to my pin tip.

I measured the rim thickness of some rounds, troubleshooting is a process of elimination and I need to check items off the list until I hit the issue(s). This gives me some insight, and from the data I would say the headspace being tight (0.0415") is NOT the issue. I'm glad about that, while I could have increased the headspace if I had to, the amount of work involved is something I prefer to avoid unless absolutely necessary.



I noted no misfires with the SK I used to save empties for testing, it had the thickest rims, some getting a slight crush. RWS L1 (Lot# 67QR41) is the one that gives me the most issues in this rifle and my PRS CZ (I will have to do some case penetration testing in my CZ too, getting the ignition perfect is part of getting the best accuracy out of a rifle). RWS L2 (Lot#56QT21) is a new delivery not yet tested. Eley Match also had fail to fires. My analysis of the testing data so far suggests to me that this rifle is running on the ragged edge of functional case head penetration. Best I can measure the firing pin protrusion from the bolt nose is 0.025", which gives a 0.0165" gap to the breech face (0.0415"-0.025"). The max it can penetrate into a 0.038" rim is 0.0215" (0.038"-0.0165") before being stopped by the shoulder in the bolt body. It can max penetrate into a 0.041" rim 0.0245".

The spring is running out of energy before driving the pin to max depth, the penetration is not being limited physically by the mechanical stop in the bolt body. The penetration seems to be just a hair too low for 100% reliable ignition. My plan to make the new striker pin that compresses the spring more appears to be the most likely solution to this issue.

 

[_Shorty]

Might not apply to this particular case, but in some cases the firing pin can lose a lot of steam by having a tip that reaches all the way to the edge of the rim and is consequently trying to crush the brass itself. That's all energy lost that could've gone into squeezing the priming compound between the two separated portions of the rim. That's why I asked. Usually best to have a pin head shape that is just shy of reaching the fold in the brass edge to avoid that. If it's round (hemispherical) then it likely doesn't apply here.

 

[jamesharrison]

I freely admit that I know, at least when it comes to rimfire rifles, diddly-squat about what contributes, or detracts from accuracy, but wanting to increase my knowledge in the matter, how does the rifle's primer indentation values compare to an Anschutz 54, or say S&L 77 or 61 rifles?

What about spring interference & fit inside the bolt body?

In any event, since I'm wanting to learn, as my recently purchased Anschutz Model 1415/1416, is not accurate, at least to my expectations, even with S-K R.M. ammunition.

 

[Leuchtkafer]

Might not apply to this particular case, but in some cases the firing pin can lose a lot of steam by having a tip that reaches all the way to the edge of the rim and is consequently trying to crush the brass itself. That's all energy lost that could've gone into squeezing the priming compound between the two separated portions of the rim. That's why I asked. Usually best to have a pin head shape that is just shy of reaching the fold in the brass edge to avoid that. If it's round (hemispherical) then it likely doesn't apply here.

Yeah take the CZ's for example they have a firing pin that extends past the edge of the rim and crush the whole thing, though they are sprung appropriately to do this. It is a common mod to file those pin tips to hit inside the rim edge and in one of my 455's I have a reduced power spring to go along with it because the factory spring overdrives the reduced profile of the modded pin tip. We don't want to send shock into the receiver, ignition is a balancing act. The Anschutz 64 with the round tip hits just inside the rim edge by default.

See my thread on modding the 457 pin: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/threads/cz-457-firing-pin-re-profile.2488857/

I freely admit that I know, at least when it comes to rimfire rifles, diddly-squat about what contributes, or detracts from accuracy, but wanting to increase my knowledge in the matter, how does the rifle's primer indentation values compare to an Anschutz 54, or say S&L 77 or 61 rifles?

What about spring interference & fit inside the bolt body?

In any event, since I'm wanting to learn, as my recently purchased Anschutz Model 1415/1416, is not accurate, at least to my expectations, even with S-K R.M. ammunition.

This is the first time I've tested case head penetration in such a setup, unfortunately I do not own any of those other models you mentioned to do a comparison. Yes, it's possible the spring could be dragging inside the body when it's compressed, by bowing slightly on the pin. In the uncompressed state when it's straight, it slides freely in and out of the body. In my case the striker pin appears to be binding up where it rides through the hole in the bolt body, noted by the wear and gouges. This is why I want to make a new pin out of harder metal, so that the bolt body doesn't bite into the striker where there is friction.

Inconsistent and unreliable ignition degrades accuracy, an exact number on how much I'm afraid I do not have data on. The consistency of ignition matters in top level benchrest competitions, where SAP ignition systems like the 64 action are not competitive against MD-PAS (Momentum Dependant, Pin Around Spring). This doesn't mean SAP systems cannot shoot very accurately, just at that level of competition a hair of improvement makes the difference between winning and losing.

Before you give up on your new rifle, be sure to test a variety of ammo. SK RM is a mid-grade, try out some Lapua Centre X, RWS Special Match and R-50, and Eley Team and Match. If you don't see a satisfactory result from any of those, then there could be a flaw somewhere in the rifle.

 

[_Shorty]

I thought I read something by Calfee about modding the firing pins in this manner. I don't know if you have to worry about hitting too hard, though. At least, he seems to think that even with having done something like this he still likes to make sure quite a bit of power is in the hits. One of the mods he does to something like my Win52D is braze some extra metal in place to get an even larger run at it by having the pin get held back at a greater distance than the factory bolt does it.

edit: Found this one that talks about and shows some of the firing pin stuff. The pictures are a great help. I'll see if I can't still find the other one I was thinking of. https://web.archive.org/web/20090105174726/http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/june2004.htm

 

[Leuchtkafer]

I thought I read something by Calfee about modding the firing pins in this manner. I don't know if you have to worry about hitting too hard, though. At least, he seems to think that even with having done something like this he still likes to make sure quite a bit of power is in the hits. One of the mods he does to something like my Win52D is braze some extra metal in place to get an even larger run at it by having the pin get held back at a greater distance than the factory bolt does it.

edit: Found this one that talks about and shows some of the firing pin stuff. The pictures are a great help. I'll see if I can't still find the other one I was thinking of. https://web.archive.org/web/20090105174726/http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/june2004.htm

I've been reading Calfee's book, The Art of Rimfire Accuracy and I actually just read the chapter that is exactly the article you linked. Lots of good info in that book. He does warn against driving the pin too hard in that article. Ideal rimfire ignition is something like having just enough power behind the pin for 100% reliable ignition but no more, and doing it as consistently as possible. Calfee expressed his preference for the chisel shaped tip, and in recent years there was experimentation with a crescent shaped tip on his forum that he was excited about. He also talks about the Win52 firing pin mod he did in his book.

All things considered, I think I'm in a good spot to get the ignition in this rifle in a very good state. All I need to do is boost the spring power a little bit to get there and make sure the pin isn't binding in the bolt body anymore.

 

[Longstud]

Im quite suprised someone like yoursef, as accuracy obsessed, would have a rifle for 8-9 years and never properly clean and lubricate the bolt. Do you think some of the wear is from neglect or just unluckilky have a defective bolt? By neglect Im referring to wear due to lack of lubrication causing the galling. Or maybe the part missed a process during manufacturing. Be interesting to do a Hardness test on yours and a new one, like RC to see if thats the cause!

 

[guntech]

I would make the firing pin tip slightly more pointed, and machine to give a bit more protrusion... and give it a go... and maybe a new spring...

 

[OkayShooter]

Is that the new style? I never had my bolts apart. I can see why.

This is my 83 doubt it was apart. The pin was hard to get out. Couldnt even get the cocking bit off. It was stuck on that good.




And 93 Silhouette.

 

[Leuchtkafer]

Im quite suprised someone like yoursef, as accuracy obsessed, would have a rifle for 8-9 years and never properly clean and lubricate the bolt. Do you think some of the wear is from neglect or just unluckilky have a defective bolt? By neglect Im referring to wear due to lack of lubrication causing the galling. Or maybe the part missed a process during manufacturing. Be interesting to do a Hardness test on yours and a new one, like RC to see if thats the cause!

I followed Anschutz bolt maintenance guidelines, as can be seen here; https://www.anschutznorthamerica.com/maintenance-tips.html

Note that they say you do not need to remove the striker rod and fully oil. This isn't an operation for the non-mechanically inclined either, try one then tell me if you'd advise the average shooter to disassemble the bolt to that degree. If you read my post carefully you'd have picked up on where I stated that I had fully cleaned and lubricated the bolt, then installed it 180 degrees opposite the OEM orientation. In just 10 "firings" during the penetration test that followed, a cleaned and lubed striker rod started to develop the same gouging as seen on the side it was originally orientated in all these years. One can only speculate, I have a sample size of one. Perhaps this wear is now common, I just don't like seeing it.

I would make the firing pin tip slightly more pointed, and machine to give a bit more protrusion... and give it a go... and maybe a new spring...

I'm not inclined to mess with a round tip pin profile, while I would happily play with a chisel shaped one. I will be modding it to allow more protrusion as that will be required to prevent it from bottoming out on the shoulder stop once more spring power is applied to it. It's not bottoming out on the stop As-Is so more theoretical protrusion ability does nothing without more spring power to go with it. I did try a new spring, testing details in my post, zero difference from the old spring. An after-market "extra power" spring would be something else to try, OEM didn't cut it.

Is that the new style? I never had my bolts apart. I can see why.

This is my 83 doubt it was apart. The pin was hard to get out. Couldnt even get the cocking bit off. It was stuck on that good.

View attachment 966047


And 93 Silhouette.

View attachment 966048

Yes mine is "new style". Your first pic I can see some wear similar to mine, hard to compare as lighting makes a big difference in how it shows up in the picture, and the extent of the gouging on mine was only revealed after I polished it. Yeah there's a reason Anschutz doesn't recommend full disassembly to owners

 

[Williwaw]

I shot my 64 for quite a while before I was comfortable dissembling that bolt. But when I did there was wear as you document. I did some polishing before reassembling. That might have been about 47k rounds. I was wondering about ignition and took it apart after I had got a new spring to put in.

 

[Longstud]

Did the missfires start just after installing the new IBI barrel or was this happening with the old barrel as well? As far as tearing down a bolt goes, I completely take apart every firearm that I purchase before ever firing a round and completely clean and lubricate it to my standard! Lots of times Ive found sharp burrs,tiny metal particles from machining and other non desirable hardened grease/lubricants almost like ear wax. Your correct that the bolts not the easiest to take apart but I dont think its rocket science either.

I freely admit that I know, at least when it comes to rimfire rifles, diddly-squat about what contributes, or detracts from accuracy, but wanting to increase my knowledge in the matter, how does the rifle's primer indentation values compare to an Anschutz 54, or say S&L 77 or 61 rifles?

What about spring interference & fit inside the bolt body?

In any event, since I'm wanting to learn, as my recently purchased Anschutz Model 1415/1416, is not accurate, at least to my expectations, even with S-K R.M. ammunition.

Would this rifle be a new rifle or a previously owned purchase!

 

[OkayShooter]

I shot my 64 for quite a while before I was comfortable dissembling that bolt. But when I did there was wear as you document. I did some polishing before reassembling. That might have been about 47k rounds. I was wondering about ignition and took it apart after I had got a new spring to put in.

Def need a vise and a jig to help hold to punch out the pin. It is even worse with the older style firing pins as you gotta hook it onto the striker. Before putting in the bolt head. Watched videos many times before able to get it back together and not be hit by the striker.

When I get back to my house full time and my gun room is back together. I'll be swapping the springs on my bolts, then doing some polishing and a good clean. My 1993 Anschutz striker was sticky. But it gets used more than my 1983 1403.

 

[allan harris]

I completely take apart every firearm that I purchase before ever firing a round and completely clean and lubricate it to my standard! Lots of times Ive found sharp burrs,tiny metal particles from machining and other non desirable hardened grease/lubricants almost like ear wax. Your correct that the bolts not the easiest to take apart but I don't think its rocket science either.

I do the same - As a matter of interest, I've never had any issues pulling 64 bolts apart but my 1761 bolt is a bit more complicated - Maybe I'm just getting old and fingers aren't as nimble as they used to be.

 

[jamesharrison]

Would this rifle be a new rifle or a previously owned purchase!

I bought it used; think it was made in the '60's. Had quite the carbon build-up ahead of the chamber. I'm now thinking it may just take some breaking-in with the S-K RM, as the 10 5-round groups fired since I've owned it, keep getting smaller & smaller. They started at a very disappointing 2.111" group at 50 yards, now down to a semi-respectable .0783", with a 0.398" group at about the half-way point.
The trigger is brutal & I haven't quite figured out how to adjust it.

 

[Leuchtkafer]

Did the missfires start just after installing the new IBI barrel or was this happening with the old barrel as well? As far as tearing down a bolt goes, I completely take apart every firearm that I purchase before ever firing a round and completely clean and lubricate it to my standard! Lots of times Ive found sharp burrs,tiny metal particles from machining and other non desirable hardened grease/lubricants almost like ear wax. Your correct that the bolts not the easiest to take apart but I dont think its rocket science either.

Never was an issue before the IBI barrel, so I have a theory as to the why. I cut the chamber for very heavy engraving, as much as I dared to go without risking the case mouth jamming into the rifling. As it is now, not all ammo has misfire issues, SK/Lapua being the most reliable. The SK rims are a slight crush fit with the headspace I set, the RWS and Eley will leave a little gap between the front of the rim and the breech face when the bolt is closed on a cartridge. The firing pin will have to drive that ammo the last little way forward up to the breech face before ignition begins, sapping the spring system of some energy. The SK/Lapua rims are sandwiched and don't move forward from a pin hit, no energy loss.

Yeah it doesn't take a physics degree to understand how these bolts come apart, it is the execution of the task that requires one to have some skills with tools. Needless to say there are shooters out there who should stay away from tools, and there are those of us who were born wearing a tool belt.

 

[Longstud]

I bought it used; think it was made in the '60's. Had quite the carbon build-up ahead of the chamber. I'm now thinking it may just take some breaking-in with the S-K RM, as the 10 5-round groups fired since I've owned it, keep getting smaller & smaller. They started at a very disappointing 2.111" group at 50 yards, now down to a semi-respectable .0783", with a 0.398" group at about the half-way point.
The trigger is brutal & I haven't quite figured out how to adjust it.

I wouldn’t give up as you’ve seen a big improvement already. I’d try playing with a few other variations of ammo. It’s all about lot numbers. As for your trigger, remove it from your rifle and pour really hot water over it and then when it dries off,which will be quickly, flood it with lighter fluid. This should make the trigger better. If not the trigger was probably adjusted by someone who shouldn’t play gunsmith. Some searching on the internet should be able to help.

 

[Leuchtkafer]

I did some figurin' on how much more spring compression I would need to get the case penetration target I'm looking for. I took an average 0.0175" OEM penetration with a target of 0.020", a difference of 0.0025" at 14.3%. I measured how much the spring gets compressed in the bolt, sorry don't have my notes with me but I'll say around 1.8". I then zeroed the weight of the spring on a scale, and setup a height gauge to be zero on the spring length with 0 weight on the scale. I compressed the spring down 1/4" and noted the weight, then set the height gauge to -0.5". This was tricky as the spring wanted to bow and pop out from under the height gauge arm, but I finally got it and yeah it was pretty much double the 1/4" weight, so linear compression. With this data I could calculate force per inch, and thus the OEM force generated at the ~1.8" compression. I calculated 15% of this value, then settled on needing to compress the spring an additional 0.290" to get that force.

I have some 1" stock that lived a previous life as a shaft, noted by the keyway cut in it. It's hard stuff and tough to machine, surface finish always needs emery cloth to look good. I started roughing it down to the largest diameter of the new striker pin.



I then machined my targets and brought it to a 2000 grit polish. I put a parting blade cut into the large diameter section just past the final length target before I started polishing, you can see to the left of it how crappy the surface finish is with this material. The hardness isn't consistent and the cutter bit will dig in more in some sections then stop cutting and ride over others. I left it long on both ends when I parted it off, so I could then face each end to the exact length targets. The skinny end had a centre hole drilled in it for support during the machining, so that end needed at least 0.500" killed off it to eliminate that.



And there it is. All that's left to do is cross drill it for the pin and I want to look into additional heat treatment, it should be as hard as possible and slick as glass for sliding surfaces. I'll also set back the shoulder stop on the other firing pin section to make sure it doesn't bottom out in the bolt body with the extra penetration then I'll reassemble and do another case penetration test. I should easily get this done before Saturday, I've got another ORPS match then I'll head to my range after and see how it goes with this rifle.