I don't know what is adorable or not, that might be your area of expertise, however, if a government agents expertise and advise is being brought into question, I am positive they will defend their qualifications and work and by doing so, also defend and testify for me!
Antique status letter for pistol
- Thread starter polskiogorki
- Start date
I don't know what is adorable or not, that might be your area of expertise, however, if a government agents expertise and advise is being brought into question, I am positive they will defend their qualifications and work and by doing so, also defend and testify for me!
The OP need only go to the RCMP webpage and follow his nose. Once he submits his documentation the RCMP group in charge of the process will get hold of him if they need more information. One thing I missed was to send along photographs of the pistol and described fully the inscriptions on the gun. eg .41 Long Colt Patient 1892 Manufactured ......from the barrel. As I said earlier the unit was most helpful and professional. I am sure they compare your info to the resources they have at their disposal to ensure they have the proper description of the gun before determining it's status.
There may be instances arise where an officer might not be aware of the Antique status regulations which might present some inconvenience to the owners but it would be as simple as a phone call to the RCMP to determine the status. No one is going to be charged with any violations if the gun has been classified as an Antique. Some of the posts here are as ludicrous as they are humerus with a touch of imagination normally found in children.
Take Care
Bob
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
Lets keep this hypothetical in mind here. I am going to add some specifics just so we aren't arguing circles over nothing. Feel free to play along, or change the facts to suit YOUR imagined scenario. I am game.
Lets say you have a handgun, and a letter from the CFP saying your handgun is an antique. You get pulled over in a routine traffic stop, and the cop asks if you have a firearm in the car. You say yes, but its an antique. He says let me see. You comply. He finds your antique handgun in the trunk, in a locked box, but no trigger lock. Because he agrees with my interpretation of the law, he lays a charge for violating 86(2) of the criminal code, failure to transport in accordance with the regs.
You lawyer up, and give your lawyer your letter, which at face value appears to be duly issued by the CFP offering the legal opinion that this firearm is an antique under Canadian law. At a pretrial meeting your lawyer shares your letter with the crown argueing it proves that the firearm is not restricted and therefore no offence has been committed. The crown offers to drop all charges if you simply forfeit the firearm. Your lawyer thinks this is a great offer, but you refuse.
At this point the crown needs to prepare for trial, and in order to go to trial has to determine if the elements of the offence are made. I'll spare you the full list, but included in that list is determining the classification of the firearm in question in order to know WHICH section of the regulations for storage are applicable. The firearm gets sent off to the lab for analysis, to answer the specific questions.
Is this a firearm per S2 of the criminal code.
If yes, is this a handgun per S84(1) of the criminal code.
If yes, what is the length of the barrel?
If longer than 105mm then it is a restricted firearm and the regulations for transportation of restricted firearms apply.
It will not be in question that you didn't follow the regulations for restricted firearms.
You will argue as a defense that its an antique not a restricted. The judge will ask you to show him the section of law that specifies where an antique firearm is either exempt from the definition of handgun, or restricted firearm, in S84(1) of the code. I invite you to do so.
Failing that, the judge will ask you to show anywhere in law where those Section 84(1) definitions of handgun and restricted firearms do not apply to S 86(2) of the code, or regulations made under 117(H) of the code for that purpose, or that an antique firearm is deemed not to be a restricted firearm for the purposes of 86(2) of the code, or alternatively from the regulations in question. I invite you do so.
Failing that, the judge will ask you to show anywhere in law where the definition antique is created as a mutually exclusively category from restricted firearm. I invite you to do so.
Failing that, the judge will you ask you to show him anything in law that creates ambiguity over any of the above, such that in the absence of clear law supporting your claim, you can at least raise a reasonable doubt. Here you offer your letter. Nothing in that letter will address of any of these issues, as your letter ONLY establishes that your firearm is an antique and is subject to the exemption of "firearm" for the purposes of certain sections, 86(2) not being among them. You call the government employee as a witness, and all they can do is agree with the letter you already have, which did you no good, or they could in fact disagree and undermine the letter, which would render you liable to several additional charges.
Having offered absolutely nothing in law that establishes an antique handgun is NOT a restricted firearm for the purposes of 86(2) of the criminal code, what else is there? What reasonable doubt have you raised that you did not commit the offence of transporting a restricted firearm in contravention to the regulations for restricted firearms.
You see the issue isn't in establishing that your firearm is an antique. The issue is that it is clearly captured under the definition of restricted firearm, and nothing in law says an antique handgun is not restricted, and therefore it subject to the same treatment under S86(2) as every other restricted firearm.
Yep, very made up and the above is what you might do, I carry the frt with me at all times, plus the sections of firearms act that pertain, if it got as far as a lawyer, I am not sure about you, but I would NOT be stupid enough to go into a hearing of any sort without due preparation and in that prep would include all the scenario's and the outcome I would be expecting ie. no deals, I get my antique back and an appology and perhaps a lawsuit towards the cop shop that employed the idiot who stopped me! The law is on my side, cut and dried. You seem to be on a one way track to nowhere and no matter what folks say it doesn't deter you, which is fine, to each his own.
For the OP: If you'd like an antique letter, call 1-800-731-4000. Speak to a CFP representative, advise that you have antique firearm that you'd like to get an antique letter for. They'll explain the process, but basically you'll need an FRT number and a verifier's identification to proceed further. The CFP staff member on the phone will be able to do this - They'll ask you a series of questions about your firearm, make model, barrel length, capacity, markings. Make sure to have it in front of you and have barrel length in mm. They'll provide you with the PRELIMINARY FRT number. A true verification can only be made by the Firearms Technology Unit of the RCMP. So, at this point you can go to the online firearms registration system, and complete a registration for your gun. Don't worry, it won't let you register it because only restricted firearms can be registered - and the FRT number you enter will show it as antique status. This will move it down the chain. You'll then be contacted by the Firearms Technology Unit to provide digital images or photographs, showing markings that are crisp and clear should be taken at the highest resolution possible and include:
- close-ups of any and all markings, including the serial number;
- overall left side, and
- overall right side.
These will be reviewed by the Firearms Technology Unit, and an they will issue an antique letter if it is found to be an antique.
A word of caution: Your 44 Special Single Action Army is probably not going to be considered an antique, nor will the vast majority of pre-1898 single action armys, but that is a topic for a different thread.
- close-ups of any and all markings, including the serial number;
- overall left side, and
- overall right side.
These will be reviewed by the Firearms Technology Unit, and an they will issue an antique letter if it is found to be an antique.
A word of caution: Your 44 Special Single Action Army is probably not going to be considered an antique, nor will the vast majority of pre-1898 single action armys, but that is a topic for a different thread.
And for anyone reading this thread, in regard to Cameron's posts, he has clearly made up his minds on this topic, but you can rest easy knowing that there is almost no chance you'll be charged or prosecuted for possessing and shooting a lettered (verified) short-barrelled antique in a safe manner, in a place, time, and in a manner that is legal for non-restricted and other firearms. No police officer will lay a charge contrary to the advice of the RCMP's firearms lab and no prosecutor would prosecute such a charge. The courts rely on expert witness testimony for technical matters, such as firearms classification, and this would almost certainly be obtained from the RCMP's Firearms Technology Unit. From a legal standpoint, there is simply no way to prove criminal intent when you've taken the steps to confirm that your firearm is of antique status with the RCMP. Proof of criminal intent, aka "mens rea", is the most basic part of Canadian Criminal law, and a required element for all criminal offenses. But don't take my word for it - call a lawyer, or a member of your local police department's Weapons Enforcement Team (I'm certain google will find you the same answers).
As for Bob's posts, he is correct in everything except for some legal semantics. Under the Criminal Code, antique firearms are defined as both weapons and firearms, EXCEPT for charges under sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03.
As per Section 84(3) of the Criminal Code, antiques are also not considered firearms for the provisions of the Firearms Act, except for one very important exception. The Criminal Code specifically states in Section 84(3.1) that :
Notwithstanding subsection (3), an antique firearm is a firearm for the purposes of regulations made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act and subsection 86(2) of this Act.
Section 117(h) of the Firearms Act is the section that allows for the creation of regulation for the Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms.
The actual regulation is the Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations, Section 14, is the section that pertains to antique firearms.
* PLEASE NOTE I have included hyperlinks so you can read the laws for yourself.
As for Bob's posts, he is correct in everything except for some legal semantics. Under the Criminal Code, antique firearms are defined as both weapons and firearms, EXCEPT for charges under sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03.
As per Section 84(3) of the Criminal Code, antiques are also not considered firearms for the provisions of the Firearms Act, except for one very important exception. The Criminal Code specifically states in Section 84(3.1) that :
Notwithstanding subsection (3), an antique firearm is a firearm for the purposes of regulations made under paragraph 117(h) of the Firearms Act and subsection 86(2) of this Act.
Section 117(h) of the Firearms Act is the section that allows for the creation of regulation for the Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms.
The actual regulation is the Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations, Section 14, is the section that pertains to antique firearms.
* PLEASE NOTE I have included hyperlinks so you can read the laws for yourself.
Here are the regulations for the transportation of Antique Firearms"
"Antique Firearms
"Antique Firearms
- 14 (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.
- (2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if
- (a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and
- (b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.
- (3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation."
This is what I was told by the RCMP group that handles Antiques
Take Care
Bob- ps Yes I stand corrected they are and they aren't firearms. I understand the logic of how it is written given under certain conditions they become firearms when coming afoul of the Criminal Code.
- pps I generally transport my Antique in my truck locked in my gun bag separate from ammunition...unloaded of course.
Cameron SS
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ground Zero
The first part of your post I agree with 100%. Highly unlikely anyone with an antique will ever be charged for anything. Mostly due to the historical lack of interaction between legal gun owners actively involved in lawful shooting activities and law enforcement.
There are lots of videos on you tube where gun owners in possession of NR firearms and legal mags having their guns seized and charges laid for unregistered restricted firearms after the cop rejected all of the printed RCMP bulletins the gun owners offered.
But i definitely agree this is an entirely academic discussion. We've had these laws for 20 years and we still dont have judicial clarifications on a grocery list of contentious items. I doubt that will change any time soon.
