Any dangers in starting with listed max loads?

[chise]

If you're using ball powder and the Lee perfect powder measure you shouldn't have issues. I weighed 50 charges using H380 (for my .303, 40 grains) and they were all perfect, it's that flakey graphite stuff that always has a .1 grain up / down.

This is why right now I'm looking for a spherical ball powder for .308 any suggestions?

 

[rnbra-shooter]

Chise - W748, H335, BL-C(2) immediately leap to mind. But for what it's worth, thrown charges of stick powder can also give pretty good results (my measure will throw Varget or H4895 with most charges being within a 0.5 grain interval; this gives 15-shot sub-MOA elevation at 600y, and elevations good enough to shoot 15-shot clean scores at 900m)

 

[JasonYuke]

The general Idea is to start below max and work, however i generaly find myself up around Book max at time when developing loads.

Just for the record, I have never seen pressure signs around book max from 17 rems to 50 BMGs even at hot summer temps.

Each book will be different as well and can vary by 2-4 grains up or down. As mentioned I am sure a safety factor has been worked in around the max given loads.

You always see max loads stop at a safe pressure range, however fill a case with the wrong powder, too much of a fast powder, or for handgunners drop a double charge, and thats when you get your self into deep S.H.I.T,even make a wrong scale messurement.

Most of the guns you see blow up are do to reasons, mechanical failure or, Loading error, or pushing the max loads too high.

Go with the book, start at th elow end of grains or stay in the range they show...you will not have any issues once you know your firearm that you are load for you will realize what you can and can not do with the loads by letting it tell you , but slowly, P.S watch the temp, hot to cold if you wonder upwards!

edited-- Pressure works funny, and does not take much to increase at the top range

Yes there is a reason they max it out!!!!!!!!!

Good luck

 

[joe-nwt]

Sigh.............

All I would like to add to the discussion is to point out that the OP has "been thinking this roll-your-own stuff...". He has not even reloaded a single bullet. He has know idea how his rifle will handle any kind of pressure other than factory loadings.

Sure, if you hit max loads safely once or twice in your rifle with no ill effects, chances are you will have no problems with the next max load from the same manual. But I myself have run across guns that exhibit high pressure signs with ammo that is perfectly fine in other guns. And not at max.

So maybe if you know your guns, know your reloading equipment, know beyond a doubt what to look for with spent brass, perhaps there may be no real reason to start at the starting load. But I don't think it prudent to advise some newbie who has never reloaded, a newbie who even asked such a question in the first place, to start at max.

If he learns some shortcuts through experience, fine. We all do. But let's not help him learn though bad experiences.

To the OP, it's your face parked right behind that ammo you just created. Let that be your guidelines as to how to proceed.

 

[Al-Sway]

To get back to the original question (or follow-on), certainly make up a batch of loads in your increments. I would suggest at least five in each powder charge, not three. I find a chronograph very helpful when doing these trials as you can quickly see how the velocity builds and any inconsistencies in the velocity (inadequate pressure in a load can result in variable burning performance of the powder and hence, wide swings in velocity). Then, be prepared to buy a bullet puller (either inertial as you have very few rounds to pull) or collet. Then, you don't waste a trip to your range, and you can pull any loads that are past your deemed safe point.

 

[firemachine69]

I have to disagree with those who say Yes to your question: "Any dangers in starting with listed max loads? " It's bassakwards for load development, but if you want to start at a published max load and work down, then it's every bit as safe as starting lower and working up to the max. Published max loads already take into account differences in case volumes and powder lots as well as even temperature. You do need to pay attention to seating depth and primer type.

The Doomsday Crowd are essentially saying that published max loads are dangerous. We already have guys who take the lowest max load they find in 10 loading manuals and reduce it by 10% to produce their own "safe" max, and now after reading this, they'll have to reduce it further? Published max loads are safe and then some. In fact it's more dangerous to work in the zone just below published starting loads than it is just above published max (not that I'd recommend either).

If you're prone to using innacurate scales, being careless with seating depth and anything else mentionned above then you should either go back to school or quit reloading.

Thanks Andy. Actually, I'm reading certain combo's, and they're listing a big danger of plugging up the barrel if you go below their listed max load by more than 4%. Of course, not in any caliber or combo I'll ever dream of doing.



I reload .308 (Savage 10FLCP-K, manufactured end of '08), for absolutely everything. My anti-zombie loads, target loads, varmint loads, and game loads (less on gameloads, the rifle is a tad too heavy for a brush gun).


I'm finding alot of IMR 4895 loads listed as "C" in my Lyman's 49th Reloading Handbook, i.e. being compressed. Is it dangerous to hold down the bullet with a crimp? The manual talks about how a check should be performed immediately after seating a compressed load, then checked again in 24 hours (and I figure just crimping it in place should resolve that). Should I get the dedicated LEE factory crimp for my anti-zombie?


(In case I need to ruck my rifle up perilious mountains, not wanting my bullets to pop out, as well as work in my secondary M14 battle rifle. )


joe-nwt:

I'm not particularly worried with the Lyman's data. I'm seeing some overly conservative numbers as compared to the Hodgdon's manual that came with my Lee Breech Lock! In any case, yes, I did buy a bullet puller, and yes, I do plan on incrementing slowly. Not to mention, the safety scale seems like a KISS method of loading powder (while maintaining good accuracy).




I just got some more powders today. Sigh, I love this variety too much.


(BLC-2 / H4895 added to the mix, plus a 1000 count of rifle primers).






For those who haven't caught on, this is a question of theory, not me actually trying it. I'm too much of a worry-wart to try full-tilt off the bat.

 

[dan belisle]

So I've been thinking this roll-your-own stuff... Why do most manuals list a "maximum load", then a starting load (usually ten percent less)? Has anyone ever lost accuracy by going higher then a starting load? Is there any real danger of loading a max load off the bat?


Inquiring mind would like to know.

Nope, no danger at all. Matter of fact, as the manuals are all proof read by lawyers now, you should just start 25% over the max. That way, you won't have any of this silly fiddling about with load work ups. - dan

 

[stubblejumper]

Published max loads are safe and then some.

In some rifles yes,in other rifles,no.I have personally owned rifles where pressure signs appeared at three to four grains under the published maximum load.There was sticky extraction,and signs of brass extrusion,so I backed off the load by a further two grains with those rifles.If I had loaded the maximum load listed,I would have likely ended up with a stuck bolt,or even worse.

 

[Boomer]

If you intend to use a maximum published load right out of the gate, here are a few questions to first consider . . .

Is your rifle an ex-military rifle?
Was your rifle manufactured prior to the adoption of SAAMI?
Does your rifle have a match or custom barrel or chamber?
Are you using military brass?
Are you using Nolser brass?
Are you using Euro brass?
Is your propellant newly manufactured?
Does it say . . . "use or compatable with such and such data" on the powder contrainer?
Are your loading manuals current?
Are you taking data from a single source?
Are you using suggested loads taken from a public forum?

If you answer yes to any of the above, going straight to a maximum load published in a single source could get you in trouble.

 

[rnbra-shooter]

I reload .308 (Savage 10FLCP-K, manufactured end of '08), for absolutely everything. My anti-zombie loads, target loads, varmint loads, and game loads (less on gameloads, the rifle is a tad too heavy for a brush gun).

I'm finding alot of IMR 4895 loads listed as "C" in my Lyman's 49th Reloading Handbook, i.e. being compressed. Is it dangerous to hold down the bullet with a crimp? The manual talks about how a check should be performed immediately after seating a compressed load, then checked again in 24 hours (and I figure just crimping it in place should resolve that). Should I get the dedicated LEE factory crimp for my anti-zombie?

Mildly and even moderately compressed powder charges are usually easily held in place by the neck tension of the case. With hollow point match bullets, I find that my seating die starts to damage the nose by about the time that the powder is seriously pushing back against the bullet.

What sort of bullet/powder combinations were you thinking of that indicate compressed loads with IMR4895, and what brass are you using? I can't think offhand of any seriously compressed 4895 loads in .308.

(BLC-2 / H4895 added to the mix, plus a 1000 count of rifle primers).

Mmmmm, H4895, the latest powder I've started to load .308 with.... so far it's been giving awfully darn good results for me!

For those who haven't caught on, this is a question of theory, not me actually trying it. I'm too much of a worry-wart to try full-tilt off the bat.

In which case, please ignore dan belisle's advice to start 25% over max, he was clearly kidding. The lawyering-up has gotten so bad these days, you really ought to start at least *40%* over the highest max load you can find... ;-)

 

[KodiakHntr]

In some rifles yes,in other rifles,no.I have personally owned rifles where pressure signs appeared at three to four grains under the published maximum load.There was sticky extraction,and signs of brass extrusion,so I backed off the load by a further two grains with those rifles.If I had loaded the maximum load listed,I would have likely ended up with a stuck bolt,or even worse.

+1

My girlfriends 300RSAUM is like that.

Doing load work up with it (using 4 different powders no less) I couldn't get within 3 grains of listed max using any of them.

Spookiest part was that it had some impressive pressure spikes. A half grain (in 2 instances) went from acceptable accuracy with no pressure indicators whatsoever, and 150fps slower than what it should of been, to having to hammer the bolt open with a 2X4 and way higher velocity than should of occurred with a half grain increment....

Start at max if you like, but you takes your chances....

 

[JasonYuke]

+1

My girlfriends 300RSAUM is like that.

Doing load work up with it (using 4 different powders no less) I couldn't get within 3 grains of listed max using any of them.

Spookiest part was that it had some impressive pressure spikes. A half grain (in 2 instances) went from acceptable accuracy with no pressure indicators whatsoever, and 150fps slower than what it should of been, to having to hammer the bolt open with a 2X4 and way higher velocity than should of occurred with a half grain increment....

Start at max if you like, but you takes your chances....

And thats how qick it can happen! I experienced some results like this palying at the top end and beyond with my 7mm Rum and 30-0378s

One grain your at 64,000 psi an dnot pressure sign, and the next grain your bolt is stuck closed..

Easy does it with these high pressure mags, and these ones you all mentioned are prime examples, 7mm stw, srums, rums......

 

[senior]

I found a simple bullet change did the same thing.
I assumed a good load with a 180 Horn it would be safe to simply swap for a 180 Rem Bronze Pt.....WRONG!!!

Never assume...it takes on a few seconds to fire a couple preporitory rounds to get back to max.

 

[ykkid]

Went to the range with a rather intelligent buddy, who was shooting handloads brewed up by another of his hunting friends. Said handload perked along just great in his buddy's rifle, (cleanly dumping one of the nicest chocolate black bears I've ever seen) but when my buddy touched one off in his own rifle, the bolt handle needed persuasion of the firewood variety. Neither of us suffered from excessive caution, so another round was sent off into charging paper. Again, several stout blows from a chunk of firewood was needed to lift the bolt. We decided that was too time consuming, and that evening he borrowed my bullet puller to salvage primed cases and bullets.

Buddy assured us both the load was not over max in the book, and again, it ran fine in one rifle, but clearly developed excess pressure in the second rifle. No need to work up to a load, though. Most modern rifles can come apart with only minor damage to the shooter. Lessons learned in the emergency room are generally not forgotten.

 

[firemachine69]

If you intend to use a maximum published load right out of the gate, here are a few questions to first consider . . .

Is your rifle an ex-military rifle?
Was your rifle manufactured prior to the adoption of SAAMI?
Does your rifle have a match or custom barrel or chamber?
Are you using military brass?
Are you using Nolser brass?
Are you using Euro brass?
Is your propellant newly manufactured?
Does it say . . . "use or compatable with such and such data" on the powder contrainer?
Are your loading manuals current?
Are you taking data from a single source?
Are you using suggested loads taken from a public forum?

If you answer yes to any of the above, going straight to a maximum load published in a single source could get you in trouble.

-My M14 is a chicom. But it will get it's own load development in due time. For now, the "super-sniper" (as my fourteen year old sister calls it ) get's first dibs.


-'08 Savage 10FLCP-K. SAAMI spec'd for sure, says so right in the manual.


-Everything is factory. None of it I would consider tight as a "match grade" barrel or chamber.


-Using new Winchester brass, followed by new Winchester large rifle primers.


-Propellant is new stock off the shelf. "Newest" stuff, I guess, would be the Varget.


-I'm always interested in everyone's pet loads, but my local 'smith made sure I properly work up my own load.


-I'm looking at multiple points of data, hence why I asked why a large discrepancy in load data exists. (Using Hodgdon's online data, the manual that came with my Lee press, the data on the powder can, as well as Lyman's 49th edition).

 

[Boomer]

If an M-14 is in the mix you should get a manual with a gas gun section like the Sierra manual. As a rule gas guns should not be loaded with slow burning powders as this can result in high pressure at the gas port and can result in damage to the op-rod.

The discrepancy you refer to is that the various manuals come by their data from different directions, for example; one might give you the velocity that corresponds with the heaviest powder charge, while the next gives you the velocity that corresponds with the heaviest powder charge that rounds off to a full or half grain of powder. Then the next one will give you powder weights that correspond with the velocity that is listed to the nearest 100 fps.

To make matters worse or at least more entertaining, some data is collected from actual shooting in a lab with a pressure barrel, some is from shooting an off the shelf rifle, and other data is calculated mathematically with no shooting to confirm the results. Another problem is that different labs are in different regions and their data is affected by local conditions, such as elevation. Some years ago when Sierra moved their facility, they ended up changing the BC values they gave their bullets due to the lower elevation of the new facility.

 

[firemachine69]

Thanks Boomer, great insight for us reloading newbies.

I currently have in powders:

IMR 4895 / H4895 / BLC-2 / Varget


I was under the assumption these were all moderate-to-fast powders. Should I pick up something else for my M14?

 

[rnbra-shooter]

IMR 4895 / H4895 / BLC-2 / Varget

I was under the assumption these were all moderate-to-fast powders. Should I pick up something else for my M14?

Those are all medium burn rate powders, and are first-choice picks for an M14.

The Varget is probably as slow a powder as you would want to use, in fact a max-load of Varget with 150-class bullets will likely produce gas port pressures higher than you'd ideally choose (i.e. even though the chamber pressure is within safe limits with say 47.0 Varget behind a 150 grain bullet, the port pressure from 47 grains of powder will be higher than you might want).

The heavier the bullet you use (e.g. 168s, 175s, 190s), the less of these powders you will use, and the *lower* your port pressure will be. So if you are interested in shooting at 600y or 1000y (quite a treat with a service rifle!), using (say) a 175 or 190 Sierra, a max-load with one of the powders you list would likely work quite well, with the added bonus of producing more reasonable (i.e. less) port pressure than a max load of those powders behind a 147/150/155.