A Moison is an inexpensive rifle, not a cheap rifle. I know of many guys still carrying Lee-enfields and they serve the purpose just fine. That is the line I want people to see is "cheap" vs "inexpensive" because there is a huge difference.
Anyone else think economy rifles degrade brand?
- Thread starter shorttrac
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A Moison is an inexpensive rifle, not a cheap rifle. I know of many guys still carrying Lee-enfields and they serve the purpose just fine. That is the line I want people to see is "cheap" vs "inexpensive" because there is a huge difference.
That is quite possible, i've never had one. I did buy a used 700 25 years ago and a brand new one a year ago. They are both good shooters but the new one doesnt have a quality look and feel. Indexed for inflation the new one would cost less. Imo
Of course. It's anti-elitism snobbery. It goes like this, "You gots more money than me but I is JUST AS GOOD AS YOU is are with mah (insert name of cheap POS.") Somehow they have convinced themselves they are them smarter, better shooters, of higher moral standings, etc.
It's another version of the guy boasting on the clay target forums how he whipped all the high-dollar shooters with his Maverick or Express. Yawn.
canadaman30
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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I beleive most of the haters here are pissed because they see their expensive "pretty" guns shoot no better than a 3-400.00 dollar gun...
I beleive most of the haters here are pissed because they see their expensive "pretty" guns shoot no better than a 3-400.00 dollar gun...
I have said many times here that in most cases a better rifle will not necessarily shoot any better. This was not an accurracy competition. The gun may shoot better but I sure as hell dont feel better shooting them.
bearkilr
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I beleive most of the haters here are pissed because they see their expensive "pretty" guns shoot no better than a 3-400.00 dollar gun...
What would lead you to believe that accuracy is the most important factor? Seems more to me like the ones with the value guns really don't do much hunting and get too hung up on range accuracy. So what if a $400 Savage with a $50 Bushnell prints a 3/4" 5 shot group off the bench, when's the last time that mattered while hunting? Pretty much all my guns will put the first shot where I'm aiming from a cold bore, nothing else matters. Any follow up shots will be rushed and not as precise anyhow.
I never really could understand the attraction for itty bitty groups from a hunting rifle. Maybe it's because I use my hunting rifles for hunting.
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- Prince Albert, Sk
I was appalled by the cheapness and could not believe anyone would want this sort of junk
I have noticed is the influx of fly by night hunters
It seems to me that the sport of hunting has been cheapened
- Location
- Prince Albert, Sk
It builds confidence in yourself and equipment.
I beleive most of the haters here are pissed because they see their expensive "pretty" guns shoot no better than a 3-400.00 dollar gun...
The guys with expensive firearms in this thread haven't been the haters. Most of us just wonder why one goes and buys a Axis when one could save up slightly more for a superior used rifle. I have a Ruger M77 Mk II that I paid $600 for used, it already had a nice B&C aftermarket stock on it. It shoots pretty well, I'd put it beside any axis, but lets say they shoot the same. The Ruger is still superior because the stock is firmer and of better quality (easier to bed the action and keep the barrel floating). The Mk II action is oh so smooth and the Mauser style extractor gives a very positive feel to the action. Follow up shots are faster and more reliable with a smooth action. I've seen Rem 770s cycle rounds smoothly when the bolt is worked slow ( like at the range) and then bind when worked fast like in the field.
Basically there is more to it than just accuracy ( and trust me a Axis will not outshoot a pricey gun meant to shoot good) and considering one doesn't even have to spend much more to get so much more I just don't get why we see so many Axis threads.
canadaman30
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Whens the last time accuracy mattered, the last time an animal was shot at. You are a perfect example of the haters, telling us all accuracy does not matter. The attraction for an accurate rifle over a "pretty" looking gun is the confidence to make that shot count when you pull the trigger. I guess it's like vehicals, some must have the best looking vehical, trying to make up where they are lacking some where's else.....
In no way does this suggest all buyers are likenened to this just more it seems than before
Whens the last time accuracy mattered, the last time an animal was shot at. You are a perfect example of the haters, telling us all accuracy does not matter. The attraction for an accurate rifle over a "pretty" looking gun is the confidence to make that shot count when you pull the trigger. I guess it's like vehicals, some must have the best looking vehical, trying to make up where they are lacking some where's else.....
This was never meant to be a pissing match. Sort of sounds like my 2 year old stomping his feet when he doesnt get his own way. If these $300 guns are so good, guess I have been getting royally ripped off all these years. How do you supposed they make them for so little money?
This thread has gone to pot... my original point was to support new/young shooters regardless of their weapon choice... if they ask for advice, then steer them toward an affordable quality weapon choice... but it is in all of our interests to both; have more shooting sports enthusiasts AND have more firearms companies be financially viable... if it takes less expensive guns to accomplish this then so be it... more established and experienced shooters will always want a refined tool in pursuit of their shooting sports passions... and manufacturers will always make top-end guns to supply that demand... Ruger will always make Ardent his top end African safari guns and Cooper will always make StubbleJumper his 7mm STW custom rigs... everyone can be happy... and it should make us ALL happy to know that our sport is growing and healthy... so let's all work on the mentoring and induction of new shooters.
Stevens stock
I was out this weekend sighting in my new scope on my Stevens 200 in 223 and I found out the this tupperware stock has to go.
Awhile back I bought a Caldwell 7 Rest thinkin that this would help me out sighting in my rifles and also seeing what my guns can shoot, by taking the shooter out of the picture. Well I dont recommend this shooting rest. I found that its not stable enough and it slides around to much. Sandbags from here on.
Getting back to the Stevens stock... While wondering what the hell was going on and chasing my bullets around the paper I found out that whenever I was shooting from the rest that my stock would flex and rub up against my barrel making my groups shoot all over my target. What a %#@$^%&^&&*** day. lol So I want to get a new stock for this. I have a Boyds thumbhole stock on my 17 which Im starting to really like (its new to me), but its wood and I know that it will easily get banged up. Is there any more durable stocks out there on the cheap side? I saw that Mystic Precision has a the Ultimate Sniper/Target stock for 255. Would that be a good stock to pick? They look very durable.
I stole this from the next thread. New stock and now your cheap gun isnt so cheap anymore.
I was out this weekend sighting in my new scope on my Stevens 200 in 223 and I found out the this tupperware stock has to go.
Awhile back I bought a Caldwell 7 Rest thinkin that this would help me out sighting in my rifles and also seeing what my guns can shoot, by taking the shooter out of the picture. Well I dont recommend this shooting rest. I found that its not stable enough and it slides around to much. Sandbags from here on.
Getting back to the Stevens stock... While wondering what the hell was going on and chasing my bullets around the paper I found out that whenever I was shooting from the rest that my stock would flex and rub up against my barrel making my groups shoot all over my target. What a %#@$^%&^&&*** day. lol So I want to get a new stock for this. I have a Boyds thumbhole stock on my 17 which Im starting to really like (its new to me), but its wood and I know that it will easily get banged up. Is there any more durable stocks out there on the cheap side? I saw that Mystic Precision has a the Ultimate Sniper/Target stock for 255. Would that be a good stock to pick? They look very durable.
I stole this from the next thread. New stock and now your cheap gun isnt so cheap anymore.
Bluebulldog
Regular
- Location
- Constance Bay ON
Because the firearms industry, like the NA auto industry was able to write it's own ticket for decades, and willfully ignored foreign production methods. The NA gun makers have been forced by the market itself to recognize that there are other makers doing it for cheaper, and with a quality that will meet NA standards. Quite frankly, like the auto industry, many of today's value guns are still miles ahead of what was offered a few decades ago.
The introduction of value priced rifles from the likes of Savage, Remington, etc shows that they learned their lessons. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
The quality of these rifles is quite good. In comparison to some of the other higher priced / quality rifles, they aren't quite as nice for "feel" this is true. But it does allow a new hunter, to get into the game, with a budget in mind. I see a few posters have commented on buying a quality "used" gun, instead. Great strategy, it's how I got into the sport years ago, but buying used also means that you could be buying someone elses problem as well ( gee, why do you think they traded in that nice little rifle in the 1st place? It's not always because they just got tired of it).
I own a very nice CIL .308 ( made by Parker Hale) bought used. love the feel of the gun, and it shoots nicely. I also recently bought a Savage Axis in .308 in stainless. I have to admit I didn't like the action on the Rem 770, but I did quite like the way the Axis felt. For the money it was a decent buy for Moose hunting in NFLD, and it shoots quite nice. It also cost less with taxes, than my CIL did, even used.
The proliferation of decently made, "value" guns is here to stay. you can buy your Benelli semi, or you can go buy a Stoeger M3500 which has the same action in it. Fit and finish isn't quite the same, but clay birds will break, ducks will fall, and turkeys will sound their last gobble just the same. Weatherby has it's scatterguns made in Turkey by Armsan, they are quite nice. I have a Mossy 20G semi built by the same place. I have a Winchester 1500 XTR which is 30 years old, and great quality, but IMO, it's no better than some of the "value" shotguns like the SA-08 out there today.
Republic of Alberta
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The market has been OVERDUE for cheap bolt action rifles for quite some time now. Used to be you could get cheap military rifles out of a barrel down at the local hardware store for a song, use it abuse it, buba it, have fun with it.
Those days are long gone.
Now we have the Stevens (for example) we can go buy one cheap, use it, abuse it, buba it and have fun with it. Look at all the threads on here the past few years about guys pimping out their Stevens/Savage. Don't you guys see it's EXACTLY the same as back in the day when everyone was buba-ing up some old Enfield. The difference now is the guns are NEW, they are SAFER, you can mount a SCOPE on them they are easily ready for hunting and come in your choice of caliber. They are not some WORN OUT military rifle CRAP SHOOT that may have, excess head space, broken parts, worn out pitted barrels, sights that shoot 3 feet high, no choice of calibers, cant mount a scope easily, may not shoot better than 12" at 100 yards... and I can go on and on.
Some of those old rifles have been tossed in the garbage LONG AGO because they were worn out junk and DID NOT last the owner longer than a new Stevens, Marlin, Ruger American, Vangaurd would have.
Those days are long gone.
Now we have the Stevens (for example) we can go buy one cheap, use it, abuse it, buba it and have fun with it. Look at all the threads on here the past few years about guys pimping out their Stevens/Savage. Don't you guys see it's EXACTLY the same as back in the day when everyone was buba-ing up some old Enfield. The difference now is the guns are NEW, they are SAFER, you can mount a SCOPE on them they are easily ready for hunting and come in your choice of caliber. They are not some WORN OUT military rifle CRAP SHOOT that may have, excess head space, broken parts, worn out pitted barrels, sights that shoot 3 feet high, no choice of calibers, cant mount a scope easily, may not shoot better than 12" at 100 yards... and I can go on and on.
Some of those old rifles have been tossed in the garbage LONG AGO because they were worn out junk and DID NOT last the owner longer than a new Stevens, Marlin, Ruger American, Vangaurd would have.
Im pretty sure my Ruger American will outlast me... since its my dedicated deer gun. I might shoot 5-10 rounds out of it a year to zero it and 1 round for deer...
Yeah the stock is cheap... Yeah the Ruger's Marksman Adjustable trigger is 100x better then Savages accu junk. Yeah the bolt isnt orgasmic to use. Yeah its one of the cheapest gun in my safe. So what...
It works for me..
Yeah the stock is cheap... Yeah the Ruger's Marksman Adjustable trigger is 100x better then Savages accu junk. Yeah the bolt isnt orgasmic to use. Yeah its one of the cheapest gun in my safe. So what...
It works for me..
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Whens the last time accuracy mattered, the last time an animal was shot at. You are a perfect example of the haters, telling us all accuracy does not matter. The attraction for an accurate rifle over a "pretty" looking gun is the confidence to make that shot count when you pull the trigger. I guess it's like vehicals, some must have the best looking vehical, trying to make up where they are lacking some where's else.....
Here's a prime example of that sensitivity.
I'll try and illustrate what he's saying; groups mean nearly nothing in a hunting rifle. Groups don't even mean all that much regarding accuracy in general when it comes to hunting. All that matters is the first cold bore shot. Do you think a custom 5lb mountain rifle worth say $5,000 is going to shoot bughole groups all day with its pencil barrel? Of course not, and it doesn't matter!
If you think bearkilr or others are compensating for something, all I can say is compare hunting photos with one of these guys who likes nice rifles that may or may not group as well as an Axis. The nicer guns don't make you a better hunter, but for those of us where hunting is a huge part f our life, we often like to do it with nice tools. For instance my main hunting rifle will likely lose in a group competitions to your $300 rifle, and it doesn't mean your rifle has more field success by any means. Nothing is lacking in my rifle's success even if it shoots a 1/2" looser than an Axis.
CNC Machinery, and an investment in decent quality, new tooling.
Have you ever seen what kind of tech went in to making the beloved Winchesters and Mausers of old? Row after row of manually operated, belt driven machine tools. Lots of guys with files, fitting parts! Whereas, in the last 20 or so years, CNC Multipurpose machining centers have become available that can essentially spit out a finished, ready to send to assembly room, rifle action, every few minutes. And that is how they make them for so little money.
Casting technology (Bill Ruger's game from his start) plays a huge part too. Being able to cast a huge number of parts that are essentially ready for use when cut free of their tree, is a huge money saver. Minimizing the human inputs, means minimizing the cost.
Folks lose sight of that their precious firearms are in fact, a consumer commodity. Every one was built to a price, and the maker had to turn a profit in so doing. Some provide value more than others. Cheap and crappy goods, though, maybe not. Cheap and effective, more so. It sorts itself out.
I don't necessarily want an econo-shoebox car, but if it gets me to town and back, well, it beats walking!
Cheers
Trev
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