Anyone else think economy rifles degrade brand?

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Cleftwynd said:
The problem canadaman30, is that YOU are bashing others for their opinions and choices.... just because someone else slights you, doesn't mean you have to respond likewise.
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I don't beleive it has been me that has agreed with the OP that certain guns are junk, poor quality, wastes of money. Instead I came to the defence of individuals who are being shunned on by certain idividuals for buying "junk". I'm not afraid to admit a accurate reliable rifle does not have to cost 3g's and that a $400 may very well out shoot that 3g gun. And you don't have to pay 2g for a quality built rifle. I could buy a Harley with 40 year old technology for a 4 times as much as my ZX-12, the cost doesn't always mean your getting a better built product, and I'm not afraid to admit that.
 
I have actually recently traded in a few of my more expensive guns for some cheaper or mid range guns. Part of this choice was due to the fact that I hunt some of my guns hard and did not want to see my $1500 gun get scratched up and marked while being lowered from tree stands or strapped into my kayak. I really do admire some of the excellent craftsmenship that goes into some of the high end guns out there . Who would not want to own and shoot a Dakota or Cooper... But who would want to drag them through the woods all day or haul them around on a 4 wheeler. All guns have there pro's and cons. My Savage is now my ATV , boat gun ... Plus it is not heavy .

I would agree with others that the Remington 770 and 710 should not be grouped with the low end Marlins , ruger or savage rifles . The Remington budget guns really are a step behind the others in build and materials in my opinion .

I still have some really nice guns in the safe but the reality is that they do not come out very often during hunting season.

While my " nice guns " are at home maintaining their good looks my TC venture and Savage axis will be out in the woods and on the river in the rain and snow looking for furry targets ofboppertunity
 
canadaman30 said:
I don't beleive it has been me that has agreed with the OP that certain guns are junk, poor quality, wastes of money. Instead I came to the defence of individuals who are being shunned on by certain idividuals for buying "junk". I'm not afraid to admit a accurate reliable rifle does not have to cost 3g's and that a $400 may very well out shoot that 3g gun. And you don't have to pay 2g for a quality built rifle. I could buy a Harley with 40 year old technology for a 4 times as much as my ZX-12, the cost doesn't always mean your getting a better built product, and I'm not afraid to admit that.
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Suggest you actually read my posts, I'm not picking on you or owners of cheap rifles though it seems you think I am. The other thing that must be remembered is a cheap gun to one fellow might be expensive to the next, the argument is rolling into cheap guns versus expensive ones, not brand damage as per the thread. When it comes to cheap and expensive guns, not everyone is on the same footing to start.
 
The "cheap" crowd is missing the point entirely. no one suggests you need a 3000$ cooper but am merely suggesting save a couple hundred more and try a ruger 77 or a 700 or an a-bolt. There seems to be more issue with the fact that some enjoy the finer things in life and save a little more to do so. I almost feel guilty for working my ass off my whole life to be able to afford a nice rifle. for the record I dont consider a ZX-12 in the same field as an axis. More like chinese crotch rocket.
 
You take any shooter/hunter with skill and give him a Maverick 88, a Savage 111 combo and a Savage Mark II with a scope and he'll be just fine taking any game in North America all with an initial investment of about $900 in firearms.

You ask if cheaper models degrade the brand? I wonder if you over valued the brand. It was never the gun, it was the shooter. Unless you're a collector or investor.
 
shorttrac said:
The "cheap" crowd is missing the point entirely. no one suggests you need a 3000$ cooper but am merely suggesting save a couple hundred more and try a ruger 77 or a 700 or an a-bolt. There seems to be more issue with the fact that some enjoy the finer things in life and save a little more to do so. I almost feel guilty for working my ass off my whole life to be able to afford a nice rifle. for the record I dont consider a ZX-12 in the same field as an axis. More like chinese crotch rocket.
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Ummm shorttrac, ZX-12 is a quaility made Japanese product not a chinese crotch rocket.
 
To someone who desires a status symbol yes, an economy package does harm the brand.
If the economy package is of good solid quality and performs well it should only help the brand to win new customers many of whom may decide to upgrade should constraints allow.
I love the economy priced firearms, they allow you're average joe or young person to get into the sport and have success without committing the gross domestic product of some African nations. You can always upgrade but I can't see someone committing $1000+ to get a higher end gun just to try the game out.
 
I'm still not sure how this whole discussion got centered around Savage.
After all, the title reads "Anyone else think economy rifles degrade brand", and Savage makes nothing but economy rifles, so how do you degrade that name? Now if a maker like Merkel, Sauer, or Rigby made a $350 gun like an Axis, then yes, it would definitely degrade their name, no question. I believe Sako made an error with the A7, for the same reasons.

One of the first nicer guns I really wanted was a shiny newly released Browning Abolt stainless stalker. I saw the ad in a magazine in the 80's, with a glossy Leupold 3-9 on it. It cost me about $1300 and I had to save up a long time to buy it. Maybe in todays world of instant gratification, many are unwilling to save up and need it "yesterday", hence the attraction to the bargain guns.
 
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Buy whatever you want!!

It's like every activity or sport - if you stay with it and it becomes a significant part of your lifestyle, you will gradually buy better stuff.
I agree with other posters however, that there has been a general degradation in quality over the years of what used to be great brands/models (e.g. Rem 700, Winchester 70, Rem 870, Marlin levers etc). Some firearm types have improved significantly, like AR-15s but not many.
 
bearkilr said:
One of the first nicer guns I really wanted was a shiny newly released Browning Abolt stainless stalker. I saw the ad in a magazine in the 80's, with a glossy Leupold 3-9 on it. It cost me about $1300 and I had to save up a long time to buy it. Maybe in todays world of instant gratification, many are unwilling to save up and need it "yesterday", hence the attraction to the bargain guns.
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How about one of those shiny new Browning A-Bolt IIIs due out this Sept? Yep....that's right, even the vaunted Browning brand is getting into the budget rifle business.
 
pinkmoon said:
I have actually recently traded in a few of my more expensive guns for some cheaper or mid range guns. Part of this choice was due to the fact that I hunt some of my guns hard and did not want to see my $1500 gun get scratched up and marked while being lowered from tree stands or strapped into my kayak. I really do admire some of the excellent craftsmenship that goes into some of the high end guns out there . Who would not want to own and shoot a Dakota or Cooper... But who would want to drag them through the woods all day or haul them around on a 4 wheeler. All guns have there pro's and cons. My Savage is now my ATV , boat gun ... Plus it is not heavy .

I would agree with others that the Remington 770 and 710 should not be grouped with the low end Marlins , ruger or savage rifles . The Remington budget guns really are a step behind the others in build and materials in my opinion .

I still have some really nice guns in the safe but the reality is that they do not come out very often during hunting season.

While my " nice guns " are at home maintaining their good looks my TC venture and Savage axis will be out in the woods and on the river in the rain and snow looking for furry targets ofboppertunity
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Exactly my point. I bought an Axis in SS, because it will be the bush gun, moose hunting in NFLD, and as much as I love my nice older CIL ( Parker Hale), I wont worry about the stock on the Axis, or moisture at all.

...and yes, looked at the Rem 770....and couldn't help but wonder what the hell they were thinking, it was like they gave a new engineer and an apprentice machinist the run of the shop.....
 
This type of thread can go on forever, one side will never get the other side to agree as to where the line between quality and junk is drawn...its all subjective personal perspective nothing more and nothing less! One mans junk is another mans treasure.
There's an old saying that is commonly heard among those that frequent competitive events and it goes "The bullshyt stops when the flag drops"....I'd have to say the same goes for rifles, have a look at what rifles are winning events (all kinds of events) and its not Merkels, Sauers, Rigbys, Coopers, Sakos, etc, etc, that are solely in the winners circles. You will see Remingtons, Savages, Winchesters and the likes, heck, I even think I've seen an Axis or two complete the "my rifle will shoot" challenges here on CGN.
If a measure of quality is success in what a rifle was intended to do, and that is to shoot reliably and accurately then I'd have to say the inexpensive offering from various companies should be thought of as such. They are simply no frills, bare bones, usable rifles that a lot owners still take pride in possessing.
The question is; Why would someone feel a need to knock these rifles and those that own them?
 
Ardent said:
Not sure how much work you've done with powerfist, but my experience is they're OK for light duty, truck tools, and you don't sweat losing them- personally I haven't bought any in likely almost 10 years, most of it gave up the ghost somehow or other (a sand blasting cabinet comes to mind, and a jack, and that's likely it). Some guns are desirable in that niche too, this thread is degenerating from its intent however regarding brand damage.

As for buying prestige, I know a few guys here myself included who've never posted their nicest guns, and in fact I've only hunted alone with mine. Some of us just enjoy quality and for us, it adds to the experience, I took that comment of more of the automatic assumption of snobbery if you have rifles above several thousand in value.
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3macs1 said:
Not on your life if you work to earn a living with them. I like my knuckles and could not care less what peers think.
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And in both of these it proves my point. Some people desire expensive guns that are nice to use and some people buy things for occasional utilitarian use. Professional hunters/target shooters don't buy an Axis/770 and once yearly meat hunters(who aren't gun nutz...) don't buy a Merkel/Anschutz. It's all about what you're doing with it as to how much you invest in accomplishing that goal.

Agreed with Ardent that things are getting a bit off topic with respect to the original question. So, I think that brand image is upheld by the happiness of the end user. If I was joe-blow and my buddy bought a 770 and the plastic parts on it broke right away, then it hurts branding to me as I'd assume all Remingtons are built like crap. If he bought it and it shot well with cheap factory ammo and he killed a moose with it then I'd be impressed and brand image would go up especially when coupled with the price. One thing to remember is that to anyone not into firearms they are dreadfully expensive to purchase meaning that even $350 on a firearm is a lot of money to many people(and 'garbage' to almost everyone on this forum).

If I was a gun nut and I picked up an axis and thought the stock felt like crap and it was built like garbage then it would probably hurt brand image...but if I took it out and it shot 1/2MOA with little to no load development and retained that accuracy then it would do great for the brand in my books.

So in short I think it depends on what an individual feels about branding as two people could have widely differing opinions on brands. One person might feel budget rifles degrade a brand due to giving into mass marketing(implying neglect to detail)while others might feel it improves it by showing how well they can make an inexpensive firearm(meaning the more expensive ones should be that much better.....right? :D )
 
This thread sure puts the nutz in CGN......


90% of this thread has been wasted on silly brand banter, insults and arguing about what guns are "cheap"....lol
 
Republic of Alberta said:
The market has been OVERDUE for cheap bolt action rifles for quite some time now. Used to be you could get cheap military rifles out of a barrel down at the local hardware store for a song, use it abuse it, buba it, have fun with it.

Those days are long gone.


Now we have the Stevens (for example) we can go buy one cheap, use it, abuse it, buba it and have fun with it. Look at all the threads on here the past few years about guys pimping out their Stevens/Savage. Don't you guys see it's EXACTLY the same as back in the day when everyone was buba-ing up some old Enfield. The difference now is the guns are NEW, they are SAFER, you can mount a SCOPE on them they are easily ready for hunting and come in your choice of caliber. They are not some WORN OUT military rifle CRAP SHOOT that may have, excess head space, broken parts, worn out pitted barrels, sights that shoot 3 feet high, no choice of calibers, cant mount a scope easily, may not shoot better than 12" at 100 yards... and I can go on and on.

Some of those old rifles have been tossed in the garbage LONG AGO because they were worn out junk and DID NOT last the owner longer than a new Stevens, Marlin, Ruger American, Vangaurd would have.
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Bingo!

guys bubba'ed the cheap military rifles to get something to hunt with. Its exactly the same concept as the bargain guns today. Except todays bargain guns are pretty much ready to go out of the box, and they are brand new. Some of them suck (Rem 710) some of them are incredible value and are just bargain models of existing bolt actions (Like the Savages). The action and barrel are the same as the higher end models, so they should last just as long as their counterparts.
 
bearkilr said:
I believe Sako made an error with the A7, for the same reasons.
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I agree.

Case in point: .. I collect Sakos. Three months ago I bought an A7 from W.Spurts, just because I was curious .. and because it was chambered for in 7mm-08. But when I checked it out at home, comparing it to my other Sakos, I was VERY disappointed. Nothing wrong with the receiver or barrel, but I hated the plastic stock, the plastic trigger guard, the plastic magazine. So yes, I sold it almost immediately, and replaced it with a Greywolf in .270 ...

.. but I STILL want something in 7mm-08 .. lol.
 
Well I would say that most of the new wetherby can't produce better groups than what you just showed .
I would think that most rifles produce better accuracy than what you posted .
He'll that looks like 400 or 500 yards out of my old tikka .
And besides it not the gun that gets meat it's the hunter that knows how to track down an animal .
 
Cleftwynd said:
I agree with the OP, but as long as quality firearms are still available, I couldn't care less if someone else likes his $300 jack handle.

As to the "I challenge anyone to outshoot the abilities of most of these "economy" rifles while in a standing position" comment, while somewhat true, some look at it this way, if you miss the POA and the rifle is not as accurate as desired, it can multiply the distance you missed by, possibly causing lost or injured game. I for one like to know that the only reason for a miss or poor shot was my own fault, not my equipments fault. Plus an accurate rifle builds confidence, which to many helps improve their shooting ability. There is nothing worse than taking a shot at something and doubting your chances of a good hit, I learned long ago that having confidence in my rifle, and myself, improved my shooting ability second only to a lot of practice.
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Here.

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