Aquafortis ferric nitrate iron nitrate, oh my.

[Painkillers]

Will this stuff work?

View attachment 1174835

I don't think so. I'm no chemist, but this bottle states it's corrosive. So corrosive that it's used to etch copper. While aqua fortis (strong water) begins as diluted nitric acid, by the time the iron is dissolved in it, there is virtually no acid left, or any acid has been rendered near neutral. It would be considered only very mildly corrosive (like vinegar), and certainly wouldn't etch metal.

Chloride and wood gives me hesitations, but thanks for the search all the same. It's appreciated.

 

[sean69]

I don't think so. I'm no chemist, but this bottle states it's corrosive. So corrosive that it's used to etch copper. While aqua fortis (strong water) begins as diluted nitric acid, by the time the iron is dissolved in it, there is virtually no acid left, or any acid has been rendered near neutral. It would be considered only very mildly corrosive (like vinegar), and certainly wouldn't etch metal.

Chloride and wood gives me hesitations, but thanks for the search all the same. It's appreciated.

no - it will work, just very poorly and you would have to neutralize the stock, the difference chloride = corrosive while nitrate = oxidizer. ferric nitrate is what you get when dissolving iron in nitric acid (good luck getting that) if you remove the water you get ... ferric nitrate crystals!

now - you are gonna have to look this one up - cause I don't remember where I got the info - but nitric acid is nitrogen based while hydrochloric and muriatic are chlorine based - there is something to do with how they react with the tannins in the wood that makes nitric acid the acid of choice.
~however~ muriatic acid is an excellent base for a browning solution

 

[Painkillers]

no - it will work, just very poorly and you would have to neutralize the stock, the difference chloride = corrosive while nitrate = oxidizer. ferric nitrate is what you get when dissolving iron in nitric acid (good luck getting that) if you remove the water you get ... ferric nitrate crystals!

now - you are gonna have to look this one up - cause I don't remember where I got the info - but nitric acid is nitrogen based while hydrochloric and muriatic are chlorine based - there is something to do with how they react with the tannins in the wood that makes nitric acid the acid of choice.
~however~ muriatic acid is an excellent base for a browning solution

You know, I never thought I'd need a rubber bib, gauntlets and chemical goggles...but here we are.


OP, and everyone else, I've found the crystals here: https://sculpturesupply.com/products/ferric-nitrate

 

[kbdplinker]

https://canadalab.ca/shop/lab-chemicals/acids/nitric-acid

Don't know if anyone can buy this from them. But I suspect chances of buying any acids, something that anyone could do 15 or more years ago, has ended due to people throwing it in other people's faces. You may still be able to get some concentrated sulphuric in hardware stores that is used as drain cleaner (in the drain cleaner section). But you definitely can't buy ammonium nitrate any more which could have been mixed together and heated, to distill off a highly concentrated nitric acid. Nitric acid is probably the most dangerous to handle even weak concentrations will stain skin yellow and higher concentrations will dissolve skin faster than it can be rinsed off. Even strong concentrations of sulphuric will give you quite a bit of time before it does damage to skin.

 

[Painkillers]

https://canadalab.ca/shop/lab-chemicals/acids/nitric-acid

Don't know if anyone can buy this from them. But I suspect chances of buying any acids, something that anyone could do 15 or more years ago, has ended due to people throwing it in other people's faces. You may still be able to get some concentrated sulphuric in hardware stores that is used as drain cleaner (in the drain cleaner section). But you definitely can't buy ammonium nitrate any more which could have been mixed together and heated, to distill off a highly concentrated nitric acid. Nitric acid is probably the most dangerous to handle even weak concentrations will stain skin yellow and higher concentrations will dissolve skin faster than it can be rinsed off. Even strong concentrations of sulphuric will give you quite a bit of time before it does damage to skin.

You just jogged a memory. Way back when I was a youngin' the truck garage I worked in would buy huge 12 volt truck lead acid batteries dry.

It was all I could do to lift one by myself. They were about 18" or 20" inches wide, 2 1/2 or 3 feet long and probably 12"-16" tall. The trucks back them would have two to four of these on board. Anyhow, they shipped to us dry and we had large boxes of 100% pure sulfuric acid in heavy plastic bags. It was clear like water, but had a viscosity to it. We'd mix the acid 50/50 with distilled water then trickle charge them overnight with the vent caps off (gassing). I remember spilling acid on one occasion. The bag slipped. It stripped the floor down to concrete as quick as a blink! We kept baking soda to neutralize spills but my gawd was the stuff strong. To think Nitric acid is stronger is an impressive statement. I understand why not everyone has access now.

I have asked them for a 500ml quote. Seeing as how an ounce or perhaps 2 will finish a long gun, I suspect a whole litre of aqua fortis will outlast me. If all works out, I'm happy to ship a couple of ounces to whomsoever wants some.

 

[kbdplinker]

You just jogged a memory. Way back when I was a youngin' the truck garage I worked in would buy huge 12 volt truck lead acid batteries dry.

It was all I could do to lift one by myself. They were about 18" or 20" inches wide, 2 1/2 or 3 feet long and probably 12"-16" tall. The trucks back them would have two to four of these on board. Anyhow, they shipped to us dry and we had large boxes of 100% pure sulfuric acid in heavy plastic bags. It was clear like water, but had a viscosity to it. We'd mix the acid 50/50 with distilled water then trickle charge them overnight with the vent caps off (gassing). I remember spilling acid on one occasion. The bag slipped. It stripped the floor down to concrete as quick as a blink! We kept baking soda to neutralize spills but my gawd was the stuff strong. To think Nitric acid is stronger is an impressive statement. I understand why not everyone has access now.

I have asked them for a 500ml quote. Seeing as how an ounce or perhaps 2 will finish a long gun, I suspect a whole litre of aqua fortis will outlast me. If all works out, I'm happy to ship a couple of ounces to whomsoever wants some.

It’s important to know that working with nitric acid is about as dangerous as it gets. Dipping iron or steel into it will cause gassing releasing brown nitrogen dioxide gas which is as bad or worse to inhale as chlorine gas. Nitrogen dioxide is the corrosive gas that is dissolved in water that makes the acid. It’s highly reactive and releases easily from the acid during chemical reaction with metals or other substances. If the fumes get in eyes, eye damage will result. I recommend avoiding trying to make ferric nitrate. It isn’t worth risking exposure or a spill. It really is not like sulphuric or hydrochloric acid exposure. The immediate affects on tissue can be catastrophic. I’ve seen it happen. And literally seconds to neutralize can leave lasting scars.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...toxicology/nitric-acid-toxicological-overview

 

[Painkillers]

It’s important to know that working with nitric acid is about as dangerous as it gets. Dipping iron or steel into it will cause gassing releasing brown nitrogen dioxide gas which is as bad or worse to inhale as chlorine gas. Nitrogen dioxide is the corrosive gas that is dissolved in water that makes the acid. It’s highly reactive and releases easily from the acid during chemical reaction with metals or other substances. If the fumes get in eyes, eye damage will result. I recommend avoiding trying to make ferric nitrate. It isn’t worth risking exposure or a spill. It really is not like sulphuric or hydrochloric acid exposure. The immediate affects on tissue can be catastrophic. I’ve seen it happen. And literally seconds to neutralize can leave lasting scars.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...toxicology/nitric-acid-toxicological-overview

Wild.

 

[Wadctrshootr]

Any suggestions on how to get rid of a glass carboy full of nitric acid sitting in a cardboard box in storage? Asking for a friend.

 

[Painkillers]

Any suggestions on how to get rid of a glass carboy full of nitric acid sitting in a cardboard box in storage? Asking for a friend.

Uh, yea.

You gingerly pour the contents into a container that has as least double the space and mix with distilled water (add the acid to the water, not the other way round). Take the solution outside.

With the wind blowing in a direction away from people and property, drop iron nails into the container. Don't breathe the fumes (Dragons Breath), the whole ordeal will heat due to the reaction, keep dropping nails in one at a time until no more Dragons breath is evedent and the solution can no longer dissolve iron. Filter with a coffee filter.

You've made aqua fortis. Sell it here on the EE in 2 or 4 ounce bottles for a profit. IT WILL SELL!

 

[B_noser]

It is also the key ingredient in many browning solutions. What is the concentration and are we really talking about a full 23L carboy?

 

[A-zone]

It is much easier to lay hands on the crystals than to get nitric acid, it would actually be easier for me to have some of the actual iron nitrate from Kiblers mailed state side to the in-laws in AZ and driven back with em in the spring instead of trying to get my hands on nitric acid but most anything that contains the word nitric is not something I’d want to try crossing the boarder with…. I can make nitric acid but by the time I buy the lab equipment I may as well just buy the crystals!… so if the crystals will work I’m thinkin I’ll just go that route.

To make ferric/iron nitrate from scratch all my research says to just drop iron (not steel) into nitric acid till it stops reacting, can’t imagine the process would completely neutralize the acid tho…. Don’t much care to find out, I’d probably end up going down another rabbit hole and losing my mind.

I don’t have much in the way of colour preferences I’m more just after the traditional look of the original or “period” finish, it’ll be beautiful no matter what I’m sure…

I bought the crystals from a Canadian sculpture supply house (together with a pint of Jax for steel and iron) because Kibler was unable to ship liquids across the border. The crystals work fine, but I found that a stronger concentration ( [ ] ) about 1.65:1 worked better than the [ ] suggested by the sculpture supply house. Once you heat the treated wood with a heat gun, it produces a nice brown colour. That comes alive when you apply the oil finish to your stock.

 

[Painkillers]

I bought the crystals from a Canadian sculpture supply house (together with a pint of Jax for steel and iron) because Kibler was unable to ship liquids across the border. The crystals work fine, but I found that a stronger concentration ( [ ] ) about 1.65:1 worked better than the [ ] suggested by the sculpture supply house. Once you heat the treated wood with a heat gun, it produces a nice brown colour. That comes alive when you apply the oil finish to your stock.

Great to hear, and a lovely looking rifle. I have 4 ounces of crystal on the way to me currently.
Am I to understand 1.65 parts crystal to 1 part distilled water?

 

[A-zone]

Great to hear, and a lovely looking rifle. I have 4 ounces of crystal on the way to me currently.
Am I to understand 1.65 parts crystal to 1 part distilled water?

I followed the instructions on the package and found the solution to be a bit weak for staining the maple. What I did was increased the concentration by 1.65. Use the number on the package first, then increase the crystal content so the final result is 1.65 times the recommended amount. It will make the wood look like cocoa once it has been heated. The oil makes it look really nice.

 

[A-zone]

I followed the instructions on the package and found the solution to be a bit weak for staining the maple. What I did was increased the concentration by 1.65. Use the number on the package first, then increase the crystal content so the final result is 1.65 times the recommended amount. It will make the wood look like cocoa once it has been heated. The oil makes it look really nice.

I used a wooden stir-stick (about 1/4 inch wide) to get a bit of the crystals. It was probably around half a cc for 50 ml of water. The solution should look a bit dark yellow - like tea. (the instructions made it look like lemon juice). I used about 25- 30 ml to do my Woodsrunner.

 

[Painkillers]

I used a wooden stir-stick (about 1/4 inch wide) to get a bit of the crystals. It was probably around half a cc for 50 ml of water. The solution should look a bit dark yellow - like tea. (the instructions made it look like lemon juice). I used about 25- 30 ml to do my Woodsrunner.

Incredible. Did you do just the one coat or several?

As the jar has 4 ounce lumps, you'll have a lot of crystal left over, as will I.

If anyone is interested in some crystal ferric nitrate once I'm done with my Woodsrunner, PM me. I'll sell it for cost.

 

[A-zone]

Incredible. Did you do just the one coat or several?

As the jar has 4 ounce lumps, you'll have a lot of crystal left over, as will I.

If anyone is interested in some crystal ferric nitrate once I'm done with my Woodsrunner, PM me. I'll sell it for cost.

Yeah, you can barely tell that any was taken out. Just two little stabs with the wooden stir stick. I made up a bit more than 50 ml of aqua fortis and applied two coats (apply, heat, apply again, heat) to the entire stock. I used a little Scotchbrite pad to apply, dipping it sparingly to avoid wasting it. I used a Q-tip to apply it to two hickory ramrods and that worked out nicely. There is about 15 mls or so left over. I'll use that to touch up some dings on a couple of old pieces that had seen better days. One thing I noticed with the aqua fortis is that it appears to be on the superficial side. Being water-based I don't know what a guy could do to improve the penetration into the wood. The effect is very pleasing to the eye, once the finishing oil is applied. It was dramatic enough to make me catch my breath.
There is a whole world of analine dyes to explore as well as tannic acid. You may want to save your aqua fortis crystals for your next Kibler builds.

 

[B_noser]

The ferric nitrate reacts with the tannins in the wood. The higher the tannin content - the darker the result. You can increase the effect on the wood by giving it a tannic acid wash and letting it dry before applying the ferric nitrate. Tannic acid crystals are used as a mordant in fabric dyeing and are easily obtainable. Best to do a test run on some scrap from the same wood, or inside the barrel channel before having a go at your stock.

 

[Wadctrshootr]

It is also the key ingredient in many browning solutions. What is the concentration and are we really talking about a full 23L carboy?

I will refresh my memory early this week as to the concentration and volume and get back here with that info. After acquiring some serious safety wear and personal education on handling it I would be happy if I could distribute it to those who can put it to good use.

 

[dan belisle]

You just jogged a memory. Way back when I was a youngin' the truck garage I worked in would buy huge 12 volt truck lead acid batteries dry.

It was all I could do to lift one by myself. They were about 18" or 20" inches wide, 2 1/2 or 3 feet long and probably 12"-16" tall. The trucks back them would have two to four of these on board. Anyhow, they shipped to us dry and we had large boxes of 100% pure sulfuric acid in heavy plastic bags. It was clear like water, but had a viscosity to it. We'd mix the acid 50/50 with distilled water then trickle charge them overnight with the vent caps off (gassing). I remember spilling acid on one occasion. The bag slipped. It stripped the floor down to concrete as quick as a blink! We kept baking soda to neutralize spills but my gawd was the stuff strong. To think Nitric acid is stronger is an impressive statement. I understand why not everyone has access now.

I have asked them for a 500ml quote. Seeing as how an ounce or perhaps 2 will finish a long gun, I suspect a whole litre of aqua fortis will outlast me. If all works out, I'm happy to ship a couple of ounces to whomsoever wants some.

Had one of those batteries blow up from a spark while I was connecting it on the side of a truck many years back. Some on my face, poured a couple gallon jugs of water over myself. One of the battery terminals put a small notch into my skull. Exciting times. - dan

 

[Painkillers]

Had one of those batteries blow up from a spark while I was connecting it on the side of a truck many years back. Some on my face, poured a couple gallon jugs of water over myself. One of the battery terminals put a small notch into my skull. Exciting times. - dan

I've also witnessed them explode. It was impressive. They didn't just pop, or blow a corner out...they (2 of them in series) blew to smithereens. I have no idea what the guy was doing (my boss), he was charging the bank with the shop charger and, I assume a spark and built up gas? -BOOM- (happened outside in front of a bay door). When I got off the creeper to see what the -BOOM- was, he was bent over at the waist, glasses off and soaked. A face full of electrolyte. Luckily, and amazingly, he wasn't really injured. We washed him off, he wore a beard, but aside from the battery bank, all was good!? Lots of baking soda.