AR-15 M16 Triggers, Legality and Availability?

76r said:
Actually, the semi carrier IS the 'thingy' that WILL jam the desire of your AR to shoot F/A with an F/A fire control group! IT is designed to to prevent this, if you look at the bottom.
I NEVER said ANY of the parts in question were illegal in Canada. But possessing a complete unit that CAN successfully empty your clip, is!
The guy was asking questions about the system, and I answered.
If you don't like the conversation...don't read it! Again, I stand by MY statements, based on actual experiences, not just stuff off of Google.
And yes, unfortunately this has taken on a life of its own and should have gone to PM's. I apologize for my part.
Regards
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You lost full credibility when you said clip. You've said it a few times now. I do clip dumps all the time, into magazines. 5 at a time.
 
bsand said:
Well, its more than just drilling out the auto sear hole. You'd also have to machine out the "jog" in a semi-auto lower. Basically it has to be same width as the FCG all the way to the take down pin step up.

Yeah, I've spent too much time looking at blueprints. What can I say, i'm geeky like that.
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Not to mention that uppers also have a cutout to fit a lower with a M-16 auto sear installed. You need very very specific parts to make a reliable safe full auto! A M-16 full auto lower( prohib) a full auto upper (not regulated) all the full auto fire control parts including the auto sear(also not regulated)

Throw all the not regulated parts into a AR-15 and you have a nice semi auto only and not some full auto beast thats gonna snort out 5 rounds in a heartbeat!

With all the parts kits out there now with non regulated full auto parts in them and people building AR's with them I would think that if they were going full auto we would be hearing about it by now!

It just doesn't happen unless there is a huge issue with the firearm that needs to be fixed. Like wear and tear, broken parts or out of spec parts.
 
Travis Bickle said:
No. It won't....
I have had everything installed. FA bolt carrier and complete FA trigger set from a batch of M16 surplus kits irunguns brought in years ago (minus the sear obviously and a lower that would even mount it). I installed the FA USGI trigger set in my restricted commercial semi auto Armalite lower. The selector would go to the auto setting and fire one round. Keep in mind I also had an old Colt FA bolt carrier on my rifle/upper.

You end up with a live round in the chamber and a dead trigger ie you have to manually #### it and eject the live cartridge in the chamber to chamber another cartridge/#### the hammer again then you pull the trigger and repeat etc
It WILL NOT go full auto unless you have a FA lower and the complete auto sear installed in it to delay the hammer. Without the sear holding the hammer to delay it/and the bolt to trip the sear later in the bolt travel sequence, the hammer will simply follow the bolt forward as it rides over the hammer in a semi auto lower. It does not strike the firing pin, it merely rides up and rests on it. It happens fast but in all the shooting I did with many different types of ammunition it never once went full auto.

Stop spreading misinformation based on lack of mechanical understanding of the firearm and creating pointless panic for nothing please.....

Also as an addition it is literally impossible to have an out of battery initiation of a cartridge in the AR15 design. You can quote the technical specifications and design of Stoner himself for that. The hammer cannot be released to strike the cartridge primer with enough inertia/force to fire it until the bolt is fully forward and engaged in the locking lugs of the barrel extension. This is also the same reason you can't fire full auto in a semi auto lower with a FA bolt and FA trigger set (minus the sear installed obviously) The hammer is released by the sear in a true full auto M16 just before it is locked in full battery, it is timed so that the back of the bolt trips the sear and the hammer is released a millisecond before the bolt locks in the barrel extension, the hammer has to travel the full distance in order to strike and actually initiate the primer. It is released as the bolt is still moving forward but it is timed so that the bolt will be fully locked and the hammer falls with full force thanks only to the sear timing this to precision. The bolt clears the hammer and is locked in battery just before the hammer travels the full unimpeded distance and does what it's supposed to do.
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I agree,
I also think the firing pin is recessed enough to not touch the primer, even with the hammer resting in it. It needs the inertia to set the primer off.
 
There is also the fully shrouded firing pin .
Prevents bending the firing pin in full auto and also slows hammer from having enough force to detonate primer if the hammer was to follows the carrier!
That Stoner guy he sure knew his stuff, I for one would never argue his genius. I on the other hand have been handling this firearm for awhile and would always look for an educated opinion when it comes to this mechanism and leave the bullsh!tt where it lays...
 
wbaad said:
I agree,
I also think the firing pin is recessed enough to not touch the primer, even with the hammer resting in it. It needs the inertia to set the primer off.
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Yes.

Armafield said:
There is also the fully shrouded firing pin .
Prevents bending the firing pin in full auto and also slows hammer from having enough force to detonate primer if the hammer was to follows the carrier!
That Stoner guy he sure knew his stuff, I for one would never argue his genius. I on the other hand have been handling this firearm for awhile and would always look for an educated opinion when it comes to this mechanism and leave the bullsh!tt where it lays...
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And again also double yes!
 
I also think the firing pin is recessed enough to not touch the primer, even with the hammer resting in it. It needs the inertia to set the primer off.
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Travis Bickle said:
Yes.
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Actually 'no'.

The firing pin, even with the hammer resting on it, cannot extend past the bolt face until the barrel is locked. Once the barrel is locked, the firing pin can extend past the face with the hammer resting on it.

An AR15 does not have an 'innertia-type' firing pin like a 1911 does

ie. on a 1911 the firing pin is actually shorter than the channel it rides in. If you depressed the rear of a 1911 firing pin flush with the rear of the slide, the firing pin does not protrude past the face of the slide. It needs the hit of the hammer to provide enough inertia to move past the slide face.
 
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OkayShooter said:
Lost cred when you said semi carrier thinggy. Whats this the Army? where thinngy and whatchamacallit is acceptable term for something?
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Just trying to use language some might understand, that's why I didn't use terms like 'hammer-sear', 'trigger-sear', 'magazine', 'rotational axis', 'potential energy', 'leverage', etc.
 
76r said:
Just trying to use language some might understand, that's why I didn't use terms like 'hammer-sear', 'trigger-sear', 'magazine', 'rotational axis', 'potential energy', 'leverage', etc.
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Well don't. Make the people research and use the proper terms.

Well magazine is the proper term for what AR15 feed ammunition from. Your trying to explain stuff use the proper terms if you want to be listened to. If a mechanics said to me I rotated those black round things, Umm you mean tires? then I probably wouldnt ever go back to him again. Or would loose all credibility.

Only time Ive seen a AR/M16/C7 slam fire because there was something broken in the trigger mech. Many people use M16 bolt carriers due to they have more mass.
 
This has been quite informative for an AR n00b like me. From the things that I've read and seen, a few points come to mind. The first is that the M16 bcg's are cheaper (less machining?) and considered more reliable and the use of them by themselves doesn't appear to be a problem. Second is that all of the stripped lowers are machined for S/A only and while the 80% kits and jigs are somewhere between, none of them go as far as F/A. And lastly and strangely, the M16 parts kits that are available in Canada would get you so busted in the US it's not funny. It looks like they have zero sense of ha-ha about anything close to F/A parts. For all the recent hysteria about "easily converted" semi-automatic guns, the AR-15 doesn't look very easy at all. Can it be done? I suppose, but with enough effort and money so can pretty much anything. Doesn't mean it's worth doing though. n00b out.
 
dirtybarry said:
This has been quite informative for an AR n00b like me. From the things that I've read and seen, a few points come to mind. The first is that the M16 bcg's are cheaper (less machining?) and considered more reliable and the use of them by themselves doesn't appear to be a problem. Second is that all of the stripped lowers are machined for S/A only and while the 80% kits and jigs are somewhere between, none of them go as far as F/A. And lastly and strangely, the M16 parts kits that are available in Canada would get you so busted in the US it's not funny. It looks like they have zero sense of ha-ha about anything close to F/A parts. For all the recent hysteria about "easily converted" semi-automatic guns, the AR-15 doesn't look very easy at all. Can it be done? I suppose, but with enough effort and money so can pretty much anything. Doesn't mean it's worth doing though. n00b out.
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You gotta be careful with '80% lowers'. I saw a guy trying to flog some in the EE a few years ago that had the FCG pocket cut so that it would fit an auto sear. If you finished such a lower, even if you didn't drill the auto sear hole, when you went to register it and send pics to the RCMP-SFSS (cuz we all know that making a lower and not registering is illegal) they would deem it a F/A lower. They specifically want to see the FCG pocket when you make AR15 lowers
 
*MALICE* said:
You gotta be careful with '80% lowers'. I saw a guy trying to flog some in the EE a few years ago that had the FCG pocket cut so that it would fit an auto sear. If you finished such a lower, even if you didn't drill the auto sear hole, when you went to register it and send pics to the RCMP-SFSS (cuz we all know that making a lower and not registering is illegal) they would deem it a F/A lower. They specifically want to see the FCG pocket when you make AR15 lowers
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Fair enough. One jig maker (and I don't remember who) said that their jigs were made to allow straight sided walls because they were easier to do on drillpress or what ever but that they were still well within legal limits. But it's all kind of moot anyhow. After watching a video shot at Brad Anderson Racing where they carve a 426 Hemi Top Fuel block out of a big chunk of billet, setting up a CNC mill that has live tooling to make any kind of firearm part should be pretty easy. In the near future they could just 3D print them if they were so inclined. The first plasma cutter plotter that I ever saw cost over $100K in the 80's. Now kits are available for a few hundred bucks. The Genie is not going back into the bottle.
 
dirtybarry said:
Fair enough. One jig maker (and I don't remember who) said that their jigs were made to allow straight sided walls because they were easier to do on drillpress or what ever but that they were still well within legal limits. But it's all kind of moot anyhow. After watching a video shot at Brad Anderson Racing where they carve a 426 Hemi Top Fuel block out of a big chunk of billet, setting up a CNC mill that has live tooling to make any kind of firearm part should be pretty easy. In the near future they could just 3D print them if they were so inclined. The first plasma cutter plotter that I ever saw cost over $100K in the 80's. Now kits are available for a few hundred bucks. The Genie is not going back into the bottle.
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As someone who has made lowers from blocks of aluminum; there's more work to it than you're describing.
 
*MALICE* said:
Actually 'no'.

The firing pin, even with the hammer resting on it, cannot extend past the bolt face until the barrel is locked. Once the barrel is locked, the firing pin can extend past the face with the hammer resting on it.

An AR15 does not have an 'innertia-type' firing pin like a 1911 does

ie. on a 1911 the firing pin is actually shorter than the channel it rides in. If you depressed the rear of a 1911 firing pin flush with the rear of the slide, the firing pin does not protrude past the face of the slide. It needs the hit of the hammer to provide enough inertia to move past the slide face.
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The point being that unless the bolt is locked in the extension and fully forward the firing pin cannot protrude enough to initiate the cartridge.
Out of battery initiation not possible.
Tomayto Tomahto.....
 
*MALICE* said:
As someone who has made lowers from blocks of aluminum; there's more work to it than you're describing.
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No doubt but since billet lowers exist, it has to be possible. Maybe not on a $1500 table top CNC mill but I'd bet there is more than one machine shop that could crank them out in short order starting from a solid block.
 
Alright boys...

I have a colt Canada FA trigger/hammer/selector in my Colt Canada SA-20. FA non CC BCG. No FA sear.

Upper FA sear cut and all.

THE RIFLE WILL NOT FIRE FULL AUTO!

You need the FA sear. That's it. Unless you MOD the bolt carrier so the hammer can hit the firing pin good enough by riding on it. But even then the timing is wrong and you need the inertia of the hammer lock back by the auto sear to have enough force and be reliable.

Now close this stupid debate.
 
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