AR upper with no forward assist

I see where you're coming from but I don't buy it. If the magazine seated, the round chambered, its that simple. There is no where else for the round to go, and if you visually and physically checked to see that the bolt was closed, there is no issue. The potential for out of battery bolts is a direct result of poor/insufficient lubrication, excessive fouling or other debris, and operators who f*ck with the bolt by partially retracting it to chamber check.

Lets look at your example in detail. You've just finished initial contact with enemy forces, there's a lull in the action. You decide to top up as anyone with some smarts would do. Now, if you pull the magazine from the rifle and notice rounds in it(a partial mag) and simply replace that mag with a fresh one. Why the need to CC? If you hadn't the time to top off you would have put full faith in the rifle still having a chambered round and atleast some available in the magazine, correct? Again, how did removing the partial magazine somehow equate to a loss of trust/belief that the rifle was not loaded. What evidence was presented to make you believe the rifle wasn't loaded? As I've said before, when competing or engaging other targets, you simply reload your rifle/pistol/shotgun when it runs dry at the very least, or sooner should the opportunity present itself. If your EMERGENCY reload, that's a reload from slide lock, or bolt lock does not include a CC, and an EMERGENCY reload is the most critical of them all. Then why bother with a CC at all? Tac reloads are done from cover at your discretion and convenience(for the most part;)) Administrative reloads are done at your leisure indefinitely. Neither of those cases, where most CC occur are critical loading events.

Some would say, "well if you have the time during a tac/admin load to CC then why not. Its just that little extra insurance." I say bullsh*t.. If a CC is extra insurance, wouldn't you want it when it counts the most, like during an EMERGENCY reload? Makes sense to me, but the reality is, you don't have time for that. Its an EMERGENCY reload for a reason, its an emergency. Your firearm is no longer serviceable and you're at great risk of injury/death(or losing the match). Chamber checking does nothing to ensure greater function or reliability in a firearm. Chamber checking is a mental assurance for the operator, nothing more.

That being said, if you insist on doing one for whatever reason. Checking rounds in the magazine is the most effective method, whether that be for a handgun or a rifle. Checking round position or witness holes along with removing and inserting the magazine has ZERO effect on the chambered round. Playing with magazines will not and cannot f*ck up that first round. It can however cause problems for the rest of the rounds in said magazine if the magazine is improperly seated. A poorly seated magazine is 100% operator error. As is an out of battery bolt after doing a CC via the bolt/CH.

Personally I subscribe to an entirely different method that is beyond simple. If a magazine gets inserted, the charge handle/slide gets cycled. Inserting a magazine IS loading the rifle/pistol and therefore the action must be cycled. It works on all semi autos, and it works every time I put a magazine in. It could be a tac load, admin load, or emergency reload, its the same for all. Its also the second half of your IA drill for a type one and two stoppage, weird huh? Same movements for several tasks. The loss of one round is cheaper insurance than running the risk of easing the bolt most of the way home. Seeing as how autos are designed to operate at speed and with great force, I am confident when I cycle the CH or slide and let it return to battery as it was designed to do, that the round did indeed get stripped off that properly inserted magazine(TAP TUG to confirm) and is indeed chambered and awaiting instructions.


There's a lot of discussion about methods of loading, unloading, IA's, RA's, CC, etc etc. At the end of the day, these movements constitute a very small portion of any shooting event be it an LE/MIL shooting or a competition. Focusing on sight alignment, trigger squeeze, and follow through is the bulk of the event. The sooner you put rounds on target effectively, the less of the other crap you'll have to do. It only goes to reason that focusing on the marksmanship fundamentals is far more important than the tertiary skill sets above.

TDC

You never had a gun or magazine related issue where the rounds werent being picked up, IE bad/dirty mag or your rifle short stroking and etc?

I rather CC and make sure my gun goes bang instead of click.
 
It amazes me how many in this thread feel that common sense is somehow invalid when compared to someone with X number of years MIL service who's only response is "Its how we were trained, blah blah, blah".

TDC
It amazes me that you do the same thing, and you're taking about what you watched someone else do on a video, and some guy you had dinner with.


You never had a gun or magazine related issue where the rounds werent being picked up, IE bad/dirty mag or your rifle short stroking and etc?

I rather CC and make sure my gun goes bang instead of click.
Yep, mags are usually the issue. Did you brass check after reloading? I had short stroking issues once in the cold. Turned out to be ice.
 
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It amazes me that you do the same thing, and you're taking about what you watched someone else do on a video, and some guy you had dinner with.

Whoa there, cowboy. Not only has TDC had dinner with several people who have opinions, he also can wear the special boots that let him climb walls.


(Cross thread high five!... Anyone?)
 
So now that we all have hijacked the hell out of this thread, has the OP made a choice or are you still looking at your options?
 
Carbon fouling combined with sand in your rifle/C7 under conditions like this, I used my FA, according to TDC it is not needed = WRONG, if i TAP/TUG and RACK that wouldn't have fixed my problem and there was no need because the BCG was not fully forward but 80% forward mostly and the round was not out of alignment so a simple pressing off the FA fixed the issue. You do not use the FA in a double feed circumstance or in most cases during IA drills, but it does have it's uses. To say it is useless is wrong and being overzealous on TDC part.

I'm not disagreeing with TDC on everything but the FA has it's time to use it. Just leave it alone.

The FA is not and should not be part of any IA. Period. A fouled bolt that won't return to battery is lacking lubrication, nothing more. Regardless, if it won't close on its own, constantly forcing the BCG into battery every shot or even every other shot is bad juju. Your rifle has problems, and its not going to get any better by slapping the FA.

You never had a gun or magazine related issue where the rounds werent being picked up, IE bad/dirty mag or your rifle short stroking and etc?

I rather CC and make sure my gun goes bang instead of click.

I've experienced stoppages, to include ridiculous amounts of sand in the action. Not once did I use the FA to solve it. Tap/TUG/RACK or unload/reload solved all. Short stroking is usually an 11" or shorter AR problem, I don't run barrels that short for precisely that reason. Regardless, the issue of short stroking has nothing to do with the FA and using it doesn't provide a permanent solution.

Your last line has me confused. You indicate you would rather CC than get the click. So what happens when you get the click anyway, say from a bad primer? I believe you would execute your IA and TAP/TUG/RACK and press on am I wrong???


It amazes me that you do the same thing, and you're taking about what you watched someone else do on a video, and some guy you had dinner with.

Yep, mags are usually the issue. Did you brass check after reloading? I had short stroking issues once in the cold. Turned out to be ice.

Reread my post. The instructor mentioned that I had dinner with, was after class, in fact I've had the privilege of having dinner and picking the brain of all the instructors I've trained with. The other instructors mentioned were from their own videos and nothing more. What's more telling here, is that you feel your attempted attack on my credibility was warranted by the fact I mention some instructors/schools by name in a video rather than as someone I've trained with. the ironic part is, most on this forum have never met let alone trained with a professional instructor/school yet they seem informed(and trained/skilled) enough to call others down. Most of this self perceived "training/skill" came from a video. Likey the Magpul Dynamics collection.

TDC
 
I've experienced stoppages, to include ridiculous amounts of sand in the action. Not once did I use the FA to solve it. Tap/TUG/RACK or unload/reload solved all. Short stroking is usually an 11" or shorter AR problem, I don't run barrels that short for precisely that reason. Regardless, the issue of short stroking has nothing to do with the FA and using it doesn't provide a permanent solution.

Your last line has me confused. You indicate you would rather CC than get the click. So what happens when you get the click anyway, say from a bad primer? I believe you would execute your IA and TAP/TUG/RACK and press on am I wrong???

TDC

I'm kind of being off topic as I am discussing CC.

What I am saying with my last line. After a string of fire/lull, I will CC to ensure the next time I need to use my firearm/weapon, it will go bang. In case there was a fail to feed from the magazine.
 
Reread my post. The instructor mentioned that I had dinner with, was after class, in fact I've had the privilege of having dinner and picking the brain of all the instructors I've trained with. The other instructors mentioned were from their own videos and nothing more. What's more telling here, is that you feel your attempted attack on my credibility was warranted by the fact I mention some instructors/schools by name in a video rather than as someone I've trained with. the ironic part is, most on this forum have never met let alone trained with a professional instructor/school yet they seem informed(and trained/skilled) enough to call others down. Most of this self perceived "training/skill" came from a video. Likey the Magpul Dynamics collection.

TDC

Well, like I've said I do agree with you, totally. Heck, Pat Rogers agrees with you too IMHO the demi-god of the M4 platform. The only issue I had was you discounting several people's first hand experience for your second hand. I wouldn't come on here and tell you how to run a match, or tell you that blue motor bikes are faster than the red ones, as I have no experience with either. and you came on here telling me that brass checking when I pop into an air sentry hatch is stupid because someone else said so. I'm not trying to attack your credibility dude, just have you recognize there are times when another method is just another method, and not necessarily wrong because it differs from what you learned. There are times when pulling a mag and feeling just isn't feasible or practical. Can we call this ridiculous bun fight complete?
 
No one has mentioned the real reason that you may wish to chamber a round into a chamber previously left empty. ROEs.

Depending on what the Rules of Engagement are, we may be required to carry the rifle either unloaded, or with loaded mag on, but chamber empty.

Civilians debating the use of a tiny piece of equipment that may or may not be required by people on the #### side of the planet in conditions that would make a magget puke, are pretty redonculous.

If you don't want one, don't get one. Two Canadian manus have offered you their product. Buy one or don't.

Myself, I like to have it, just in case I need it. Same reason I carry more than one magazine, a bayonette and more than one firearm.
 
I get dry in the mouth when thinking of all the times I hit the forward assist over the years and how close I was to death...:runaway:d:h:
 
No one has mentioned the real reason that you may wish to chamber a round into a chamber previously left empty. ROEs.

Depending on what the Rules of Engagement are, we may be required to carry the rifle either unloaded, or with loaded mag on, but chamber empty.

Civilians debating the use of a tiny piece of equipment that may or may not be required by people on the s**t side of the planet in conditions that would make a magget puke, are pretty redonculous.

If you don't want one, don't get one. Two Canadian manus have offered you their product. Buy one or don't.

Myself, I like to have it, just in case I need it. Same reason I carry more than one magazine, a bayonette and more than one firearm.

If your ROE demand empty chamber, then what's the problem with running the charge handle like its designed to be used?

As for having it over not. Do tell, how does an FA provide the same level of security/insurance as spare ammunition or a second firearm? The bayonet is borderline useless but I would say its far more useful than the FA. At the very least you can open your rations or mail with it.

TDC
 
If your ROE demand empty chamber, then what's the problem with running the charge handle like its designed to be used?

As for having it over not. Do tell, how does an FA provide the same level of security/insurance as spare ammunition or a second firearm? The bayonet is borderline useless but I would say its far more useful than the FA. At the very least you can open your rations or mail with it.

TDC

Running the bolt hard back and slamming forward might give away your position for a possible crucial second before you get a chance to fire a shot, now imagine 4-12 guys doing it at approx the same time. He who fires the first aimed shot, momentarily, has the upper hand.

When my rifle has been run for 200 rds in less than 45 mins and is gunky, full of sand/dust, hasn't seen any lube, I might, just might need something to get that gummed up bolt carrier forward through all of the s**t. Keep in mind that my rifle won't be fired from a covered bench. I may be crawling on my belly or burrowing into the ground because that's where the incoming bullets hopefully won't find me. Our rifles get bumped and thumped. We get thrown too the ground by explosions, covered in the gore leaking out of the man who's life you just tried to save by putting your hand in his chest. There are all kinds of nasty things that can get into a rifle when you're not in convient conditions.

If that's what I need to do too continue firing while someone is trying to kill me, then so be it. When you're sitting at home and cleaning your rifle more than you shoot it, you don't need one. I may need one in a life and death situation someday.

As for your crap about the bayonet, a British unit in Iraq successfully made a bayonet charge across an open bridge after running out of ammunition (2006, 07 or 08?). Those men lived because even without ammunition they had the ability to fight, take lives and keep "hand too hand" combat over three feet away.
 
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come on petrock, your experiences mean nothing, this tdc chap seems to have all of the answers, he learned all this in the comfort of his home and on one way ranges filled with instructors and other students.... how could the terror of combat compete with that ?
 
I don't want to belittle anyone. There are a lot of people who feel that we don't need the Forward Assist. I don't think I've ever really needed one myself, most times I can get away with the gunfighter drills (I don't like removing my right hand from the pistol grip at any time) as they keep you ready to fight immediately after clearing the issue.

I'm just not ready to give up that FA. Someday, in some s**tty place, on a particularly s**tty day, I just might have to rely on it too save my life.

I realize that most of us wouldn't dream of "forcing" the bolt foward, for sure without determining why the rifle stopped functioning. When people are trying to kill you though, you forget that the rifle is a couple thousand dollar investment and put lives first. Get the rifle back into the fight, and make sure as many of your own come home, while making the other guys dead.
 
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The FA is not and should not be part of any IA. Period. A fouled bolt that won't return to battery is lacking lubrication, nothing more. Regardless, if it won't close on its own, constantly forcing the BCG into battery every shot or even every other shot is bad juju. Your rifle has problems, and its not going to get any better by slapping the FA.



I've experienced stoppages, to include ridiculous amounts of sand in the action. Not once did I use the FA to solve it. Tap/TUG/RACK or unload/reload solved all. Short stroking is usually an 11" or shorter AR problem, I don't run barrels that short for precisely that reason. Regardless, the issue of short stroking has nothing to do with the FA and using it doesn't provide a permanent solution.

Your last line has me confused. You indicate you would rather CC than get the click. So what happens when you get the click anyway, say from a bad primer? I believe you would execute your IA and TAP/TUG/RACK and press on am I wrong???




Reread my post. The instructor mentioned that I had dinner with, was after class, in fact I've had the privilege of having dinner and picking the brain of all the instructors I've trained with. The other instructors mentioned were from their own videos and nothing more. What's more telling here, is that you feel your attempted attack on my credibility was warranted by the fact I mention some instructors/schools by name in a video rather than as someone I've trained with. the ironic part is, most on this forum have never met let alone trained with a professional instructor/school yet they seem informed(and trained/skilled) enough to call others down. Most of this self perceived "training/skill" came from a video. Likey the Magpul Dynamics collection.

TDC
Perhaps we should connect on Skype and you can show me exactly what you mean.
 
Running the bolt hard back and slamming forward might give away your position for a possible crucial second before you get a chance to fire a shot, now imagine 4-12 guys doing it at approx the same time. He who fires the first aimed shot, momentarily, has the upper hand.

When my rifle has been run for 200 rds in less than 45 mins and is gunky, full of sand/dust, hasn't seen any lube, I might, just might need something to get that gummed up bolt carrier forward through all of the s**t. Keep in mind that my rifle won't be fired from a covered bench. I may be crawling on my belly or burrowing into the ground because that's where the incoming bullets hopefully won't find me. Our rifles get bumped and thumped. We get thrown too the ground by explosions, covered in the gore leaking out of the man who's life you just tried to save by putting your hand in his chest. There are all kinds of nasty things that can get into a rifle when you're not in convient conditions.

If that's what I need to do too continue firing while someone is trying to kill me, then so be it. When you're sitting at home and cleaning your rifle more than you shoot it, you don't need one. I may need one in a life and death situation someday.

As for your crap about the bayonet, a British unit in Iraq successfully made a bayonet charge across an open bridge after running out of ammunition (2006, 07 or 08?). Those men lived because even without ammunition they had the ability to fight, take lives and keep "hand too hand" combat over three feet away.

Your scenario is perfectly legit, its just not the norm. Championing the FA over the possibility of one very rare potential use is weak. I'm not debating the function of the FA, I'm simply debating the belief that it should be used in an IA sense without first determining the stoppage and/or executing a more productive IA/RA that solves the problem and eliminates the potential for others. The FA solves very few problems with the added headache of possibly introducing more, the least of which requires you to remove your dominant hand from fire control. Even if you managed to close the BCG with your FA, the problem that caused that out of battery condition is only going to get worse the more you shoot. An out of battery BCG is a sign of bigger problems that the FA cannot solve, namely a lack of lubrication or excessive debris.

As for the bayonet charge, I know about that. If I remember correctly, the soldiers involved didn't actually bayonet anyone, the Iraqi's fled or surrendered. Obviously a last ditch option, exactly what the FA should be considered as.

TDC
 
TDC

In a gun fight you don't have time to open the rifle , pull out a bottle of CLP and start cleaning or lubing it up well on the move and rounds coming down range.
You deliberately pull certain words out of an explanation and then come out with an explanation that coincides with your points or line of thought.

HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN A GUN FIGHT?
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN ON A MILITARY EXERCISE BEFORE?

There are situation that you cannot have your rifle in show room condition ready to rock & roll...have you ever thought what happens when a simple bottle of CLP is no longer available and your rifle starts to gum up with carbon like crazy and in an extremely dirty environment, until you are in situations like that, then please enough already.

This is really funny because I was on the range a few days ago and I actually used the FA and it worked again with no hiccups after that...lol. A friend of mine road the actions(First time on an AR) and all it took was striking the F/A and giving the BCG a little nuge, all was fine then. Basically he simulated a stoppage and gave me a fun chance to disprove your F/A is useless stupidity.

I think the problem with you is that you are taking various instructors out of context and taking there words farther and more absolute than you should.

The debate here with you is that you believe the F/A to be totally useless and it can not solve any problems on an AR in any situation, this is completely untrue and total nonfactual.

I can understand the debate of F/A being worth to put on the AR, but the truth is it is more stupid to bother taking off generally, why bother???? leave it alone already.
 
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