AR upper with no forward assist
- Thread starter smak_daddy
- Start date
Isn't it something like a Dirty Sanchez???
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
I pushed my forward assist today at the range just to pay homage to this thread. It felt great but didn't accomplish much.
lol!
Nope, but it would appear you have that same attitude from doing courses on the weekend.
Thanks, we appreciate the support, especially lately.
Well just because you have taken a few courses doesn't put you in line for next god of the carbine either, neither am I, so chill for a moment and bear with me.
Take a look back through this thread and tell me how many times I've stated that I agree with you(for the IA portion of it) before you criticize my fashion sense, and the abilities of myself and my co-workers, and before you dismiss my opinion as "ignorant gospel". I've stated that often enough that you shouldn't dismiss my ability to use my rifle based on a difference of opinion.
If you are going to assume most soldiers are incapable, you are hanging out with the wrong dudes. Were not all paste eating mouth breathers, and some of us given our experiences would prefer to have that feature on a battle rifle (read:Battle). Kevin may rather use his thumb, but my hands hate the heat and I'd just rather have it there. As stated several times, on a civ rifle, I couldn't care less, and would be more than open to owning one in the future.
If you are assuming that the vast majority are incapable from the "handful" that you have met, then that's some straight up ignorant s**t right there. I like it, unfortunately you are correct with that outside of most arms units. However if you're citing the drills where the FA is pushed after every IA, then your info is antiquated, as we are trained differently with newer shooting programs Eg Gunfighter and all that jazz.
Kevin has earned the right to tell us how f**ked up we are, by living it himself.....He has lived in those conditions, you haven't. I'm not qualified to tell you how to run matches, so I don't. It would be pretty ignorant of me to do that, as I have no experience. So it seems odd to me that I am ignorant of my own wants in a battle rifle, according to "Bob from the internets".
My only gripe with you is you're too quick to dismiss others experiences, that, to me, comes across as someone who is finished learning.
My posts wasn't directed at you entirely, I apologize if it came across that way.
With regards to my observations of serving personnel and their abilities. I have seen more than a handful, and all were rather dismal in the performance dept. Aside from the handful that weren't (Kevin and others I've personally shot with) the rest were not exactly poster boy material. I'm aware of the gunfighter program, to the best of my knowledge that is being offered to (or was) those going overseas first and other units who were not due to deploy were not yet receiving it. That may have changed, I don't know I'm not serving. Regardless, I strongly doubt the gunfighter program is preaching the use of the FA.
As for Kevin earning his right, he most certainly has, as have many others on this forum. That being the case, no one seems to be eager to tell him he's wrong. So the impression here is that because he has the experience and doesn't champion the FA his opinion is "OK" or "acceptable". Whereas, my opinion(which is the same as Kevin's) isn't because I apparently have no (valid)experience. Personally, that's ignorant sh*t. Logic doesn't require experience to be applied. As I posted before, none of the big names in the game teach or preach the use of the FA, that would be a clue. I have no issue with the FA remaining on the rifle, it just doesn't get used as it serves no practical purpose.
As for my training and experience. I can almost guarantee it trumps 90% of the non MIL/LE members on this forum and likely trumps a fair number of the MIL/LE on this forum. I will admit, I can and have dismissed others experiences/capabilities without enough information to do so. However, I see the same being perpetrated towards myself all the time. Again, no disrespect to those serving, but its usually a soldier or LEO who is quick to call down a civvie as "not knowing anything". I have a hard time believing MIL or LE folks who only possess the training they were PAID to learn while ON THE JOB or whom only qualify annually as required. If you are into your craft you would train on your own time and your own dime, sadly very few do. In my experience, it is this desire that usually results in civvies beating the MIL and LE guys at competitions. I'm not saying, I'm just saying.
On a side note(bold above). Why the need for support as of recently? Did I miss some big anti armed forces rally? I thought pulling out was what the "public" wanted?
TDC
u guys are scaring us noobs lolYeah well it doesn't trump mine, you are a loud mouth as far as I'm concerned.You came on with a hard on against the F/A, with what??????? range courses you took with LAV ,Costa and a few others. Yeah that is great but you simple don't get the big picture.....
Your experience????WTF
What experience, you have not been out in a field long enough to see any wear and tear on your rifle. or have you?????? Who are you again? You think you will just bring whatever oil for your gun out in the field, choose your own gear, and have spare parts for your AR at your disposal. Yeah all guess all just take a knee in the middle of fire fight and clean my rifle of all the carbon build up and sand
During a fire fight you need your weapon back in the fight as quickly as possible, even at a semi-effective level is better than none at all.{I have no issue with the FA remaining on the rifle, it just doesn't get used as it serves no practical purpose.} Actually it has practical purposes, not much but it does.
{trumps 90% than most soldiers} like what are you comparing, what scale is that again, how did you determine that????????
You came on here like you were an authority, telling me I was wrong, but what makes you think I didn't TAP/TUG/RACK, well guess what I did, and it didn't work because it was a repeating problem. Pressing the F/A was easier and faster and solved the problem in a time efficient manner.
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
TDC
I think the problem with you're posts generally (not all but many/most) is not what you say but how. Yes, you and Kevin both said basically the same thing about FA. However, Kevin posted his opinion with some back up, in a calm and polite manner.
You seem to scream at everybody and tell them they have their head up their ass about everything. You are right and everybody else is wrong. That is what get's people's backs up. Chill out and be polite. When you come of as frothing at the mouth, nobody want's to listen.
Anyway, that is my personal take on it. Others points will likely vary. I don't pretend to speak for others here.
I think the problem with you're posts generally (not all but many/most) is not what you say but how. Yes, you and Kevin both said basically the same thing about FA. However, Kevin posted his opinion with some back up, in a calm and polite manner.
You seem to scream at everybody and tell them they have their head up their ass about everything. You are right and everybody else is wrong. That is what get's people's backs up. Chill out and be polite. When you come of as frothing at the mouth, nobody want's to listen.
Anyway, that is my personal take on it. Others points will likely vary. I don't pretend to speak for others here.
Yeah well it doesn't trump mine, you are a loud mouth as far as I'm concerned.You came on with a hard on against the F/A, with what??????? range courses you took with LAV ,Costa and a few others. Yeah that is great but you simple don't get the big picture.....
Your experience????WTF
What experience, you have not been out in a field long enough to see any wear and tear on your rifle. or have you?????? Who are you again? You think you will just bring whatever oil for your gun out in the field, choose your own gear, and have spare parts for your AR at your disposal. Yeah all guess all just take a knee in the middle of fire fight and clean my rifle of all the carbon build up and sand
{I have no issue with the FA remaining on the rifle, it just doesn't get used as it serves no practical purpose.} Actually it has practical purposes, not much but it does.
{trumps 90% than most soldiers} like what are you comparing, what scale is that again, how did you determine that????????
You came on here like you were an authority, telling me I was wrong, but what makes you think I didn't TAP/TUG/RACK, well guess what I did, and it didn't work because it was a repeating problem. Pressing the F/A was easier and faster and solved the problem in a time efficient manner.
For starters I've never taken any training from LAV or Costa. If you had read my post, I mentioned than neither LAV or Costa(Magpul) and several others teach the use of the FA. For the majority mentioned, they have real world experience, I believe LAV has over 20 years, as does Kyle Lamb. Haley has over a decade(to the best of my knowldedge) and all have shot people. None of them preach the use of the FA. Not my experience talking, its theirs. Oh, and don't forget Kevin, he's got a lot of years experience as well.
As for oil, I don't use it, it sucks. Again, if you had read my post you would know this. Oil or grease or some kind of lube should be part of your kit, if its not, you need to revisit your setup. That being said, one Pat Rogers has a well documented AR(filthy 14 I believe it was called) with some 18,000 rounds through it without cleaning and with few failures, none of which required the rifle to be taken off line. Lots of lube and the rifle ran. So your argument that your rifle will go down in the middle of action is a little stretched. The common knowledge today is that poor/lacking lubrication is the primary reason for AR systems failure, right after poor magazines. The mag issue has been solved with Pmags and the lubrication issue is solved with grease or other high end lubricants that remain in place longer than crappy CLP that is gingerly applied. The problem being two fold, poor lubricant and poor application. Apply quality lubricant frequently and you don't have a problem.
I agree that a semi functioning rifle beats a non functioning one any day. The part I completely disagree with is the belief that the FA will solve a problem as effectively or efficiently as simply TAP/TUG/RACK. The fabricated unlikely event of a partially closed BCG where use of the FA would be successful, is also successfully solved by TAP/TUG/RACK which you already know and should be executing immediately after a type one stoppage, failure to fire. Your IA manual of arms should not include slapping the FA, sorry its wrong. As a remedial action, I guess you could use it, but the question is why? There are far better options that are easier to execute and reduce the likelihood of causing a more serious problem. You're right, the FA is useful, but only barely. It ranks up there with Beretta's belief that their open top slide design is great, if you ever lose all your magazines but somehow have loose ammo, you can single load it more easily.
More of an answer looking for a problem.My statement regarding my abilities compared to those in uniform is based on the serving personnel(both MIL and LE) I've competed against, trained with, and observed. Perhaps I'm only seeing the less than stellar candidates but my data shows a lack of skill across the board. Regardless, if those I've observed are the bottom of the bunch, why are they not being retrained or pulled from service? Surely their performance isn't an acceptable standard?
I make my posts based on what I know supported by fact, logic and experience. I've listed several schools/instructors who don't teach or preach the use of the FA and our own CGN industry man KevinB has stated the same. All I keep reading is how it might possibly work for some very specific situations. Where in most cases your IA, TAP/TUG/RACK, would also have solved the problem, with less effort, without removing your hand from fire control and without observing the chamber and/or BCG position. The only supporting evidence for the use of the FA is "I'm a serving member" which somehow translates into "I know what I'm talking about, and non serving citizens do not". That isn't fact nor evidence to support your claim.
Your repeating problem, was caused by under lubrication and/or excessive fouling. The FA won't solve either of those problems. The other possible issue was a fouled chamber. Forcing a round in via the FA will make it worse, potentially terminal. The FA is a high risk, low reward option for very few problems you might encounter. Its a specialized option for low frequency problems with an even lower positive effect.
TDC
You might be right, but the answer is still the same. My concern isn't what people choose to do as far as gear selection or techniques. Its more the why. Many can't articulate why they choose to do or practice something, and that's a dangerous way to operate. All I'm saying is that people need to stop taking everything they hear from both professionals and non professionals alike as pure gospel. Learn something new then try to dissect it. Try and prove that method inferior(not wrong) to another. Same for gear. Look at your equipment with your specific goal(s) in mind and try and come up with more reasons why you shouldn't run it as opposed to reasons why. If you can't cut it down, its likely the best option.
Its easier to dream up reasons for something. It takes more thought and logic to come up with reasons against something. Often times the negatives come out or come to light after someone has purchased the item or practiced the technique, which is too late. The error has now cost time and money and will cost more to correct.
The process should be constant. Failure to constantly analyze and critique your gear and methods translates into a plateau. A point of failure to learn or evolve. Evolve/adapt or die. Its how we advance and survive.
TDC
- Location
- Fort St John B.C.
- Location
- big sky country
Bolivar
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
red magnum
CGN Regular
- Location
- Sundre, Alberta
100% agree with you, TDC you come off as a know it all keyboard commando ####. That's why I've invited you out to shoot, by the way IDPA match in Drumheller on Sunday.
I'm not saying I'm anything special but proof is in the pudding. I bet there are a bunch of people that want to see you shoot in person, I'm one of them.
For starters I've never taken any training from LAV or Costa. If you had read my post, I mentioned than neither LAV or Costa(Magpul) and several others teach the use of the FA. For the majority mentioned, they have real world experience, I believe LAV has over 20 years, as does Kyle Lamb. Haley has over a decade(to the best of my knowldedge) and all have shot people. None of them preach the use of the FA. Not my experience talking, its theirs. Oh, and don't forget Kevin, he's got a lot of years experience as well.
As for oil, I don't use it, it sucks. Again, if you had read my post you would know this. Oil or grease or some kind of lube should be part of your kit, if its not, you need to revisit your setup. That being said, one Pat Rogers has a well documented AR(filthy 14 I believe it was called) with some 18,000 rounds through it without cleaning and with few failures, none of which required the rifle to be taken off line. Lots of lube and the rifle ran. So your argument that your rifle will go down in the middle of action is a little stretched. The common knowledge today is that poor/lacking lubrication is the primary reason for AR systems failure, right after poor magazines. The mag issue has been solved with Pmags and the lubrication issue is solved with grease or other high end lubricants that remain in place longer than crappy CLP that is gingerly applied. The problem being two fold, poor lubricant and poor application. Apply quality lubricant frequently and you don't have a problem.
I agree that a semi functioning rifle beats a non functioning one any day. The part I completely disagree with is the belief that the FA will solve a problem as effectively or efficiently as simply TAP/TUG/RACK. The fabricated unlikely event of a partially closed BCG where use of the FA would be successful, is also successfully solved by TAP/TUG/RACK which you already know and should be executing immediately after a type one stoppage, failure to fire. Your IA manual of arms should not include slapping the FA, sorry its wrong. As a remedial action, I guess you could use it, but the question is why? There are far better options that are easier to execute and reduce the likelihood of causing a more serious problem. You're right, the FA is useful, but only barely. It ranks up there with Beretta's belief that their open top slide design is great, if you ever lose all your magazines but somehow have loose ammo, you can single load it more easily.
My statement regarding my abilities compared to those in uniform is based on the serving personnel(both MIL and LE) I've competed against, trained with, and observed. Perhaps I'm only seeing the less than stellar candidates but my data shows a lack of skill across the board. Regardless, if those I've observed are the bottom of the bunch, why are they not being retrained or pulled from service? Surely their performance isn't an acceptable standard?
I make my posts based on what I know supported by fact, logic and experience. I've listed several schools/instructors who don't teach or preach the use of the FA and our own CGN industry man KevinB has stated the same. All I keep reading is how it might possibly work for some very specific situations. Where in most cases your IA, TAP/TUG/RACK, would also have solved the problem, with less effort, without removing your hand from fire control and without observing the chamber and/or BCG position. The only supporting evidence for the use of the FA is "I'm a serving member" which somehow translates into "I know what I'm talking about, and non serving citizens do not". That isn't fact nor evidence to support your claim.
Your repeating problem, was caused by under lubrication and/or excessive fouling. The FA won't solve either of those problems. The other possible issue was a fouled chamber. Forcing a round in via the FA will make it worse, potentially terminal. The FA is a high risk, low reward option for very few problems you might encounter. Its a specialized option for low frequency problems with an even lower positive effect.
TDC
You made a diagnoses on specific situation that i was actually in, and guess what you are wrong. What would your response be if I told you that the weapon i had was if anything actually over oiled and recently cleaned?????????? What would you tell me if i WAS ACTUALLY LEFT HANDED????So would my hand be off the fire controls then???????
What would you tell me if my AR had gone through well over 18000 rds in it's service life and the armors had not swapped things out like gas rings and other parts??? I guess in a big war TDC will just have another rifle of parts in his rucksack and gallons of his choice of oil always on hand well over seas...
Well, it came across as more at "us", which is worse than "me". "me" I can deal with, as I understand my training is limited, when it becomes an "us" from an outsider, who hasn't "walked a mile", thats when I get my back up.
Nope, hence my agreement with you in the first place. I've been the dude standing there on hour 3 of TOETs smacking my helmet off my sight to the rhythm of "holy-crap-you-dumb-s**t-stop-yelling-about-the-forward-assist"
Anyone with time behind an AR can FEEL the bolt go into battery/not when it goes forward. That said, should there be excessive mud/dirt/carbon (+500 rds in a day) or in any situation below -20, I'll be happy its there. You are correct about Gunfighter being deployment only, but now that the entire Army has deployed 5 times over, that info has been disseminated to those who have not even been overseas in most units I've seen. Commonly referred to as "Afghan drills", it has become an acceptable standard amongst those of us who know better. Our CQB program was also lifted from those with no names, and the instructors for that discipline are trained by said crew to an exceptional standard, so much so, it is being adopted by some of the finest fighting forces in the world.
Exactly because he has the experience. Other than the fellow earlier who mildly suggested you take point
, no one else here is asking that of you.His would appear to be something along the lines of "whatever floats your boat, but I dont need mine" (correct me if I'm wrong) Whereas yours has come across as "no you are wrong", followed by several "because I said so's" If you want to make the call, have the experience, and I mean first hand. Kevin has corrected me on a few things on this board, mainly lubricant, I took his advice and my rifle ran better for the remainder of my tour. He had the experience in that AO to offer that advice, so I took it. I wouldn't offer advice on what kind of motor oil to use, as I'm not a mechanic.
Which you are also perpetrating that in the reverse. It comes off as brash, as all of our comments have been reserved to our wants on a battle rifle. That's the thing about Army dudes, we have a thing called "stay in your lane". Having one, in hand, in country for almost 2 years, to be dismissed in my opinion of a battle rifle by someone who has put his back in the safe every night was offensive. If you've heard the phrase "well I don't go down to the street corner and tell you how to @#$% a @#$%%? " Well, I'm not going to the competition street corner if you catch my drift.
Here lies our issue. You have a hard time trusting troops who haven't taken outside courses. I have a hard time trusting civy's with no time downrange, our biases would appear to trump each other. Keep in mind, almost all civy side trainers started in the military, and several have based their training off of the TTP's of more modern units.
Long story short, a civy can whoop me all day in a competition, and I wouldn't mind. I'll take what I can from it, and learn. That said, competitions are competitions and TIC's are TIC's. If I'm poking my bean over the hesco at 0500 I may give the FA a shot, just to "Know". You're a knowledgeable guy when it comes to shooting, probably a far better shot than I if you are training with Kev and his crew, all I ask is if you are going to call all our training antiquated, you should be up to date on how we are trained, and where that knowledge base came from. A lot of it is REALLY good stuff from some great instructors who have a ton of experience, as well as several international military and civilian courses. Odds are we have drank from the same mug of logic on most issues, we just disseminate ours a little differently.
Because even though the flow of caskets has slowed, we are still feeling that the public is behind us, the rallies are still happening and the bumper stickers are still on. Just the other day a nice old dude from the legion asked me if I had been " over there", and when I said yes, he gave me a cool hat.......its the little things
. I wasn't saying it was lacking, quite the opposite.
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18000? Pffffff........Virgin........
That rifle had gone through a far larger number, but i couldn't really Gage how many rds had gone through it, but it was a lot more than 18000..I would say upwards of 50000 in it's service life..lol
