Ar vs vz58
- Thread starter CalKid6
- Start date
.30/06 FTW
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Thunder Bay, Ontario
Apparently Windham Weaponry is pretty good.
You will never beat an AR's ergonomics. That would be tough. But, the cz had lots of aftermarket do-dads that vastly improve the ergos. The cz beats the AR hands down in the fact you can shoot it anywhere. You can also hunt with it. Ammo is way cheaper too. So, if you do all your shooting at a range and don't care that your gun will be registered and someday confiscated by the government, then go ahead and get an AR. LOL! Just kidding. A little tin foil for ya.
I will probably get a vz58 down the road but due to wanting to participate in 3 gun the accuracy and the majority of options available i will be going with the AR. I will end up doing most of my shooting at a range and i can always get a sks if i want to have fun in the woods for the mean time!
If you want an AR you could take the gamble that in a few months to a year when the gun laws get figured out in the states your guna see alot of cheap AR parts hit the market.
1 they will pass no laws and people who stock piled parts will dump them cause they want the cash and not a rifle they can buy anytime they want. (alot of people will cancel order's aswell)
2 they will ban the AR and other sporting semi autos and then the manufacter's will have a ton of guns they cant sell to the US market and have to dump them on the foreign market (canada).
3 they drag out the gun laws and fear monger it for aslong as possible and parts get harder to get. But I doubt that will happen they wana get the laws passed if they cant they wana settle it down cause all it's really doing is selling more guns at an amazing rate. I have a buddy whos grandma and grandpa both purchased an AR15 and AK one of each for both.
Because they wanted to have them incase the ban goes thru they said if this had never happend they would not have bought them and if it does not go thru they will sell them and you can bet alot of people are thinking like that.
1 they will pass no laws and people who stock piled parts will dump them cause they want the cash and not a rifle they can buy anytime they want. (alot of people will cancel order's aswell)
2 they will ban the AR and other sporting semi autos and then the manufacter's will have a ton of guns they cant sell to the US market and have to dump them on the foreign market (canada).
3 they drag out the gun laws and fear monger it for aslong as possible and parts get harder to get. But I doubt that will happen they wana get the laws passed if they cant they wana settle it down cause all it's really doing is selling more guns at an amazing rate. I have a buddy whos grandma and grandpa both purchased an AR15 and AK one of each for both.
Because they wanted to have them incase the ban goes thru they said if this had never happend they would not have bought them and if it does not go thru they will sell them and you can bet alot of people are thinking like that.
-You can get both AR's and VZ's in .223 and 7.62 so the points on ammo are moot
-you can get mag adapter for vz to use ar mags
-never really heard AR's not go bang no matter what ammo
-AR ergonomics are much better, but vz is getting better with aftermarket mods
Seen many many AR platforms not go bang and break far more than the VZ platform. The VZ is what it is, a strong no frills battle platform, it's a little out dated and ugly but a good design.
In Canada it all comes down to range access, I was close to a range now it's about 1 1/2 hour drive each way. So right now my AR is a paper weight, but the VZ get's lots of happy time in the back 40.
Now if I still had the range near by the AR wins. What the hell everyone should just buy both double the fun.
AR vs VZ head to head just aint right, both are great firearms and have their place.
Totally respectfully disagree
The x39 round is cheaper and IMHO a better round for a combat rifle which is what they are designed to be
Regarding the mag - see above
Every AR I've owned has had lots of failure to fire and feed. I have seen lots of ARs not feed or fire reliably. I have never had a failure in my CZs or Vzs or seen one
I personally like mine with the steel folding stock but the wood is good too. IMHO
Hoestly though, with the rise in price of surplus x39 ammo, is it really any cheaper these days compared to .223?
Canada Ammo sells x39 for $300 /1200. = .25 per round.
They also sell .223 for $400/1600. = .25 per round. (THIS IS NON-CORROSIVE)
Scary how prices are leveling out. It's almost not worth owning one if the main goal was to save money on ammo.
7.62x39 corrosive prices are very quickly approaching .223 non corrosive norinco these days, and I am not going into combat with these rifles
Dont know what you mean about the mag...
Never really hear AR's not working that is not related to cleaning/maintenance OR mags; mine (and many many many of others) are chugging right along with 1000's of issue free rounds)
You hear more and more stories of new VZ's not working out of box (not mine, they run like a champ), and CZ un-tabbed carrier gremlin
I own both and both have good and bad points (well the only bad thing about AR is restricted status)
Dont know what you mean about the mag...
Never really hear AR's not working that is not related to cleaning/maintenance OR mags; mine (and many many many of others) are chugging right along with 1000's of issue free rounds)
You hear more and more stories of new VZ's not working out of box (not mine, they run like a champ), and CZ un-tabbed carrier gremlin
I own both and both have good and bad points (well the only bad thing about AR is restricted status)
Luke S, go run a carbine course and then see how many AR's break. Why do you think most/all bring a backup.
Like any tool shat happens, AR's due break and so do VZ's. In reliability the VZ beats the AR the rest come down to the shooter's skills.
AR vs VZ on paper the AR wins, in real world a great shooter with a VZ will make a weak shooter with an AR look silly. That also works if you flip the coin.
So fighting about which system is better is a moot point.
Have fun and stay safe
Like any tool shat happens, AR's due break and so do VZ's. In reliability the VZ beats the AR the rest come down to the shooter's skills.
AR vs VZ on paper the AR wins, in real world a great shooter with a VZ will make a weak shooter with an AR look silly. That also works if you flip the coin.
So fighting about which system is better is a moot point.
Have fun and stay safe
break what? barrels, triggers, firing pins? what? how many round in each of these rifles 1000? 10000? more? were these ever maintained?
why doesnt US and CAN switch to VZ rifles if they are universally better?
and of course, how it performs is up to practice/shooter, no argument there
I own both, not advocating for either, both can develop issues, both require different skill set to operate
why doesnt US and CAN switch to VZ rifles if they are universally better?
and of course, how it performs is up to practice/shooter, no argument there
I own both, not advocating for either, both can develop issues, both require different skill set to operate
Great little guide if you dont know what can break.
Krupa's Guide to AR-15 Parts Breakage...
So a lot of folks got their AR-15 on... Might be a good idea to hunt for some spares/know what needs to be tuned if necessary.
John Krupa, Director of Training for Team Spartan and former LE Training Director for DSArms, shares years worth of wisdom below:
Parts wear & breakage will always be an issue for anyone that is regularly running their rifles thru rigorous use.
On the AR-15 / M-4 type rifles, common parts breakage / wear is a regular occurrence on extractors, bolt rings (gas rings), firing pin retaining pins and firing pins.
We have (10) DS Arms ZM4 5.56 rifles we have been using as student loaner rifles in our classes and live-fire demos since they were issued to us in 2005. Most of those rifles have seen in excess of 25,000 rounds - easily!!
In running these rifles - HARD - over this long a period of time, we've seen at least a 1/2 dozen extractor failures, broken / severely worn firing pin retaining pins in virtually every rifle and bolt ring failure & replacement on all rifles - 3X over!
Surprisingly, I've experienced parts breakage on parts that don't break as often, but have been brought to light as parts to consider inspecting during regular preventive maintenance inspections and having extras on hand:
We've had several charging handle failures where the roll pin that holds the latch to the handle failed. The aluminum hole that holds the roll pin in place becomes elongated as a result of extensive, aggressive use, resulting in failure.
At least (4) buffer failures where the roll pin that holds the rubber buffer to the buffer housing comes loose, resulting in the rubber buffer fraying & shredding due to misaligned contact with the buffer spring.
Multiple cracked bolt catches, most likely broken from stress damage due to inexperienced students violating the rule of dropping the hammer forward while the lower receiver is separated from the upper during field stripping & cleaning.
We've broken 8 of 10 RRA 2-stage hammers, which all of our rifles were originally issued with! Most of these hammers broke within 5,000 rounds! I definitely DO NOT recommend competition fire control groups in serious rifles used for duty / personal defense. (As preached by John Farnam)
We've only had (2) firing pin issues, both of which the point of the firing pin became elongated, resulting in it dragging on the inside of the firing pin hole on the bolt, resulting in failure to fire stoppages.
Also, keep in mind that your not just counting rounds fired or cycled through the rifle as the overall reason of parts wear. Any rifle programs that have any level of dry-practice / dry manipulation of the rifle counts as wear reps as well.
It is not uncommon for rifles to see dry practice manipulations meet or exceed actual live-fire round count! ALL cycling - whether it's live-fire reps or dry-practice reps - will lead to parts wear, and eventually contribute to parts breakage.
Bottom line is, if your going to play rough with your toys, plan on breaking stuff.
Of course range queens never break.
Sign up for some courses and see what can happen to any and all platforms.
http://www.phaselinegreentactical.ca/
Krupa's Guide to AR-15 Parts Breakage...
So a lot of folks got their AR-15 on... Might be a good idea to hunt for some spares/know what needs to be tuned if necessary.
John Krupa, Director of Training for Team Spartan and former LE Training Director for DSArms, shares years worth of wisdom below:
Parts wear & breakage will always be an issue for anyone that is regularly running their rifles thru rigorous use.
On the AR-15 / M-4 type rifles, common parts breakage / wear is a regular occurrence on extractors, bolt rings (gas rings), firing pin retaining pins and firing pins.
We have (10) DS Arms ZM4 5.56 rifles we have been using as student loaner rifles in our classes and live-fire demos since they were issued to us in 2005. Most of those rifles have seen in excess of 25,000 rounds - easily!!
In running these rifles - HARD - over this long a period of time, we've seen at least a 1/2 dozen extractor failures, broken / severely worn firing pin retaining pins in virtually every rifle and bolt ring failure & replacement on all rifles - 3X over!
Surprisingly, I've experienced parts breakage on parts that don't break as often, but have been brought to light as parts to consider inspecting during regular preventive maintenance inspections and having extras on hand:
We've had several charging handle failures where the roll pin that holds the latch to the handle failed. The aluminum hole that holds the roll pin in place becomes elongated as a result of extensive, aggressive use, resulting in failure.
At least (4) buffer failures where the roll pin that holds the rubber buffer to the buffer housing comes loose, resulting in the rubber buffer fraying & shredding due to misaligned contact with the buffer spring.
Multiple cracked bolt catches, most likely broken from stress damage due to inexperienced students violating the rule of dropping the hammer forward while the lower receiver is separated from the upper during field stripping & cleaning.
We've broken 8 of 10 RRA 2-stage hammers, which all of our rifles were originally issued with! Most of these hammers broke within 5,000 rounds! I definitely DO NOT recommend competition fire control groups in serious rifles used for duty / personal defense. (As preached by John Farnam)
We've only had (2) firing pin issues, both of which the point of the firing pin became elongated, resulting in it dragging on the inside of the firing pin hole on the bolt, resulting in failure to fire stoppages.
Also, keep in mind that your not just counting rounds fired or cycled through the rifle as the overall reason of parts wear. Any rifle programs that have any level of dry-practice / dry manipulation of the rifle counts as wear reps as well.
It is not uncommon for rifles to see dry practice manipulations meet or exceed actual live-fire round count! ALL cycling - whether it's live-fire reps or dry-practice reps - will lead to parts wear, and eventually contribute to parts breakage.
Bottom line is, if your going to play rough with your toys, plan on breaking stuff.
Of course range queens never break.
Sign up for some courses and see what can happen to any and all platforms.
http://www.phaselinegreentactical.ca/
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