AR x39 mags in your SKS!

You guys keep saying it's illegal to modify a pistol magazine because "policy" or "the law" or "the RCMP say so".

Yet no one has even quoted the FA, let alone some other piece of actual information.

The Firearms Act says magazine capacity is defined by what firearm the magazine is designed or manufactured for. In no way does modifying any magazine change what it was originally designed or manufactured for.

If "modifying" constituted designing or manufacturing, with respect to the Firearms Act, then we'd all be able to "manufacture" short shotgun barrels at home with a hacksaw. But we can't, because that's not manufacturing, it's modifying.

A modified pistol magazine is still a pistol magazine.

5440fight said:
A modified mag is not legal if it holds more than the factory mag, as modifying it makes it a magazine for that specific rifle.
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Please quote the relevant FA or CC section that says this.

If modifying any magazine constituted "designing or manufacturing", then where are all the 20 round AIA mags made from M14 mags? Exactly. It's what it was originally designed or manufactured for that counts.
 
At the end of the day the question becomes "Why did you modify the 10 round pistol magazine?"

If the answer is "Because I wanted to use it in this other type of pistol and it didn't fit," then fine, it can be 10 rounds.

If the answer is "Because I wanted to use it in my SKS," then you modified a pistol magazine to make it into a rifle magazine. Bam, five round limit.

For example, if I took a magazine from my CZ-75 and modified it to work in my Beretta 92, and it remained at 10 rounds, there would likely be no concern about this. If this modification also made it possible to use the CZ-75 magazine in a Beretta CX4 carbine, well, that might be okay too, because the intended purpose of modifying the magazine was to make it work in the Beretta 92 pistol. The carbine was designed to use the Beretta pistol magazines, not the other way around.

Now, how would you apply that logic to an XCR pistol magazine? It already is meant for the XCR pistol, so you don't need to modify it to fit that. What pistol could you say you are modifying it to fit, that also happens to coincidentally make it fit an SKS rifle? I can't think of one... There's no SKS pistol, so you are SOL. If you modify it to fit the SKS, then you were modifying it to fit the SKS, nothing else. 5 round limit.

So anyway, this leaves you with modifying the SKS to use the XCR magazine, but you can't modify the magazine to work with the SKS. It can be done, and I proved it, but it isn't easy. As far as I know I was the first one in Canada to get an SKS to feed reliably from an XCR magazine. http://youtu.be/mZTdRLdyKzA Only the receiver and bolt were modified, not the magazine.
 
Stevo said:
You guys keep saying it's illegal to modify a pistol magazine because "policy" or "the law" or "the RCMP say so".

Yet no one has even quoted the FA, let alone some other piece of actual information.
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That's because it's not illegal to modify any magazine. There is no law against making the modifications.

What may or may not be legal is possession of the finished product. Criminal Code 92(2), for example.

The disposition of a modified magazine might be obvious, or it might require investigation and a determination by a Firearms Officer, Judge, or whomever decides. If it was modified for the purpose of being used in an SKS, and there's no other believable explanation as to what it was modified for, then likely the outcome will not be favorable.

If you modify an M14 magazine to fit a bolt action AIA rifle and it holds 20 rounds, that seems okay. The act of modifying it is not illegal. Possessing it, well.... If it's meant for a bolt action rifle, and holds 20 rounds, should be fine. If you can still use it in an M14, probably prohibited.

So anyway, you are correct in saying there is no law against modifying a magazine. Whether it is later deemed to be a prohibited device would be a whole other can of worms and would depend on the circumstances and whether you even get charged, and what a judge thinks, is there a plausible explanation, etc...
 
Stevo, do a Youtube video showing people how to modify AIA mags, and shoot 10 rounds through a semi with them. I will let friction hold them in, like the other people who do not enjoy the exclusive company of men. Once you have modified the mag, it is no longer specifically made for a bolt action, any more than if the original manufacturer had done it, it is dual purpose, and modified to make it so. Whether they did it, or you did it is not relevant, the RCMP would have a strong case. Un-modified, or with a magazine that predates the alleged "dual use" firearm, it would be a fight you could win.
 
5440fight said:
Stevo, do a Youtube video showing people how to modify AIA mags, and shoot 10 rounds through a semi with them. I will let friction hold them in, like the other people who do not enjoy the exclusive company of men. Once you have modified the mag, it is no longer specifically made for a bolt action, any more than if the original manufacturer had done it, it is dual purpose, and modified to make it so. Whether they did it, or you did it is not relevant, the RCMP would have a strong case. Un-modified, or with a magazine that predates the alleged "dual use" firearm, it would be a fight you could win.
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Not even, as far as the dual use thing goes. Since ar mags are still pistol mags, and can be used in rifles, they don't pre date anything.

The difference really simply is, what was it designed or modified to be used in. If you have a pistol magazine, and you modify it to use it in a rifle, then you have now "redesigned" it for use in a rifle. If you had a pistol that also took the same mags, you may argue it but not likely. The only reason that the pistol mags in a rifle are ok is because they are theoretically designed and marketed specifically at pistols. Hence why Ruger 10/22 25 rOund mags are prohibited but the butler creek and others aren't. Ruger said on their packaging "also works in charger pistol" and therefore clearly stated that it was designed for use in both.

Same idea would be with the pistol caliber carbine. If you had, say, a Jr carbine and a glock, then yes, you can use the pistol mags in both. But if you found some other magazine that was close to fitting the Jr carbine but needed a slight modification for it to fit, then you have now redesigned the magazine for a rifle specifically, and it must be 5 rounds. It is of no consequence if it also still fits in a pistol, as it has been then redesigned for dual use.

It is all silly semantics, but these semantics could land you in jail.

Quite literally, if Ruger was to make a run of packaging that said "for 10/22 rifles" and threw the same damn magazine in the package that they make now, it could be used just fine, as it is no longer dual use (even though, of course, you could still use that magazine in the charger pistol, and you could now do it legally, because you are using a magazine that was designed for one firearm, keeping to that type of firearm's magazine limit, and it just so happens to fit the other type.
 
zeuce said:
He also says his mag manufacturer will be making factory mags already modified. That will be our only legal way of making this work again if he can get ok'd by the rcmp and distribution.
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actually no.. if the manufacturer makes a "modified" mag, then technically he's making a mag which was designed to fit into the SKS, and must be limited to 5 rounds..

since there was a first article version which was "working", and the purpose of the new change was specifically to fit the SKS, then the RCMP could/would argue that it was designed to fit the SKS, and will be limited to 5..

you need something which was designed from scratch, to fit a pistol, but "just happened" to fit the sks with no intentional design to do so.

BTW: These posts which the RCMP read, are now evidence that it was not originally designed for the SKS, and is now a modification to do so..
 
The capacity restriction is on the magazine itself not the firearm. Everyone here knows that, but read closely, the capacity limit is designated to the magazine and "what the magazine was intended and manufactured to be used in - not what firearm the magazine might actually be used in." So a modified pistol mag may be modified but it was still intended and manufactured to be used in a pistol weather you modified it to fit a rifle or not. A modified pistol mag in a SKS is still a pistol magazine that was intended and manufactured to be used in a pistol but is actually being used in a SKS. Why make it more complicated than it already is? We didn't write the laws we're just trying to follow them.

If this isn't right than someone quote me where it says that modifying a magazine to fit another firearm is illegal please.
 
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The rcmp would obviously interpret the modification of the magazine to be manufacturing though. You have taken a pistol magazine and modified it so that a) it may not work in the original pistol anymore (certainly a no no by law I'm sure) or even just b) it will work in a rifle.

The law is applied in a way that if the unaltered pistol magazine fits a rifle then so be it, but modifying it would be considered manufacturing.

You should probably know by being on this forum and reading what the rcmp does, it is not about the exact wording of the law all of the time, it is about how they interpret it. Could you take it to court and fight it? Sure, but the judge might even agree with the cops that you have, in essence, manufactured a different magazine than the original one by modifying it. Even if the judge sided with you, is it really worth getting arrested, getting bailed out, getting your guns taken, being dragged through the courts and paying out the nose ass and ears to defend yourself, all because you believe that you are still following a loophole in the law? Since, let's call a spade a spade, this is a loophole in the law. Not many judges are going to give you a bunch of leeway with a loophole. But even if you win, then what did you win? You won a bunch of your own money being wasted, you won a ton of your time lost, you won your name dragged through the courts, you won having your guns taken until/unless you win, and all so that you can have ten rounds in your SKS.....? Can't say I'd risk it myself, I think the rcmp have been pretty clear that they will interpret the law in the way that best suits them.

This all brings to mind a question/thought I had though.

What if a Canadian manufacturer designed a bottom metal for, say, Remington 700 rifles chambered in .223 or 7.62x39 or another caliber that is often used in the ar platform, that took STANAG magazines. They then make magazines to match, and those magazines happen to be 30 round magazines and are stamped on them "designed for Johnny's bolt action rifle bottom metal". These magazines would then be fully legal to use tm in said bottom metal, but would also be fully legal to use in an ar or tavor or vz58 with the mag adapter..... would they not? My question also is, why the crap has someone not done this? We have Canadian guys making cool stuff all the time....it would be cool to have a bolt action gun that could take the same mags as your tavor or ar anyways, so why not make the bottom metal to suit, and crank out mags for the guys who really hate changing mags in their bolt guns? Or even 20 round mags, so they don't interfere with the function of a bolt gun on a bipod.....
 
krprice84 said:
What if a Canadian manufacturer designed a bottom metal for, say, Remington 700 rifles chambered in .223 or 7.62x39 or another caliber that is often used in the ar platform, that took STANAG magazines. They then make magazines to match, and those magazines happen to be 30 round magazines and are stamped on them "designed for Johnny's bolt action rifle bottom metal".
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I can't find the thread, but someone tried this and they were rejected by the RCMP..
 
ckc123 said:
I can't find the thread, but someone tried this and they were rejected by the RCMP..
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You've got to be kidding me? That must, and I mean must, show that modifying a pistol mag to fit an SKS would not be allowed by the cops. If someone can not design a gun to use a magazine that happens to fit in anther gun (because it is a world wide standard which would keep costs down etc), and follows the magazine capacity limits, if any, of the gun it is being designed for, clearly there are ways the cops are interpreting the law to benefit their agenda. I'm actually very surprised that they are allowing the pistol mag in a rifle thing to pass, it's weird
 
krprice84 said:
You've got to be kidding me? That must, and I mean must, show that modifying a pistol mag to fit an SKS would not be allowed by the cops. If someone can not design a gun to use a magazine that happens to fit in anther gun (because it is a world wide standard which would keep costs down etc), and follows the magazine capacity limits, if any, of the gun it is being designed for, clearly there are ways the cops are interpreting the law to benefit their agenda. I'm actually very surprised that they are allowing the pistol mag in a rifle thing to pass, it's weird
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IF I remember correctly (it was about a year ago).. someone was trying to design a magazine for the Remington 7615 that would coincidentally fit an AR. it was rejected because the 7615 was itself designed to take "AR Magazine", so in effect the magazine was still an "ar magazine" even if it was designed for the 7615..

so this would further complicate the matter in that now you also have to take into account the design the GUN that the magazine was designed for as well.

personally, I think it was just a way for the RCMP to try and prevent more situation like the LAR-15 mag, which they got caught on a technicality (rightfully so..)
 
Do the factory make for that Remington also fit an ar or are the slightly different? If they are a prefect fit as they are then that could be challenged and won. Look at the situation with the Ruger charger pistol. They banned the 25 round magaziNes made by Ruger only because they say in the package "also fits charger pistol" but the butler creek and others are allowed because they say designed for rifle only. Even the drum mags fit the charger if I understand right. It would be thE same deal with making aftermarket mags for the Remington . The trick would be that they would have ti be designed solely for the Remington. The fact that it uses the same style magazines as the ar is not important nor should it be even mentioned.

The person who bright that to rcmp clearly bright it up wrong. You could not bring it up saying "they also fit an ar" because you have just said, or implied, they were designed that way. In theory the designer should not even be test fitting the mags in an ar as it must be an incidental/unintentional occurrence that they fit. I believe if someone had brought aftermarket mags for that rifle that were only intended for that rifle and an ar was not mentioned, it would have been a win. That rifle is probably ruined as far as this goes. Are there other pump/bolt/lever guns that take STANAG mags?
 
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