AR15/AR10/Black Rifle List (25-Dec Update)

I thought Norc was in import/exporter and not necessarily a manuf of firearms.
 
Epoxy7 said:
That's interesting because that's actually not what I said at all. What I stated was that DPMS makes a lot of lower level consumer grade stuff. Their higher end stuff is still associated to the lower end stuff which begs the question why would you buy their higher end stuff when you can buy from a company that only makes top grade stuff.

I'm loosly using the TDP. Only because a number of the features are there to try and keep failures due to parts to a minimum. I don't consider all of the specs to be that important. In some cases there are sollutions that exceed those specs. For instance the castle nut being staked. Well my two new AR15 lowers being built will have the PWS enhanced buffer tube. There isn't a castle nut. I consider this better than the specs.

Here's the real difference you seem to be missing:

Bolt carrier groups on top grade stuff are HPT, MPI and shot peened. These tests are not cheap to perform on every bolt and shows the companys commitment for excellence. Lower grade stuff will employ some of this and in some cases none of this. The DPMS isn't shot peened even on their higher end stuff. It should also be noted that on sites such as AR15 forum that DPMS is probably number 1 for bolt related failures. Some of those guys drive their stuff hard.

Also lets get to the metals as you mentioned. Many of the DPMS products are 6066-T6 Aircraft Aluminum Alloy for the uppers and lowers. Their higher grade stuff is Forged 7075 T6 as it should be for the standard. Another difference: Carpenter 158 is used on the high end BCG while DPMS uses 8620. This may have changed as it always is with firearms companies. Trying to find the specs through DPMS though is tough. It's very easy with the companies that offer a product catering to military or police.

The Noricno shoots great. But... who knows what the specs are. the forgings are to spec but the fit/finish of them shows less care in the product frankly. People changing stuff out have found it not to be to the normal specs and that it's a crap shoot as to the specs. Barrels are said to last only half as long as the high end ones. That being said I have shot one and it worked very well. It was accurate and yes would shoot as well as the higher end stuff.

Let's also keep in mind it's Norinco. Their consumer grade and professional grade products may not be the same. Look at the SKS. There is a much better surplus military version and the consumer grade versions. We don't know what specs the military ones are vs the specs the consumer market ones are. They may very well be different.

Ultimately I agree with you that for most of us it doesn't really matter. A more accurate firearm will probably be a lot better. But if a rifle has extra features or extra quality control in place for their products then that gives it credibility in the stats and name brand recognition.

Let's also look at it this way. Let's make a computer comparison. An AMD based system may depending on the model etc be just as good or possibly better than the Intel version at the same product level. But... with Intel you know what you're getting. It's a sure thing. If it were your job to purchase the equipment and you opted for the AMD sollution well good stuff. Very progressive thinking. Save money get a product as good or better. But... the moment something goes wrong you're the one who will be looked at for the acquisition. They had a saying in the computer office world. Nobody ever got fired for buying Intel.

Most people want what the professionals are using. The theory is if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.
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Here is one more data point to consider. We have run a few Norinco rifles on the range here over the past year. They proved to be quite reliable. However at about the 12,000-15,000 round point the bolt would start sticking. Closer inspection revevealed that the locking lugs on the barrel extension were deformed. Also the bolt locking lugs showed a fair amount of wear (to be expected) and the firing pin hole had become enlarged. This allowed primers to extrude into the bolt and further jam the rifle. It is my opinion based on these issues that the steel used in the BCG of the Norinco rifles is not nearly as hard as that used on Colt BCGs (the others I have some experience on long term use with). A top tier rifle should last past the 25k round range.
 
Shooting Centre said:
Here is one more data point to consider. We have run a few Norinco rifles on the range here over the past year. They proved to be quite reliable. However at about the 12,000-15,000 round point the bolt would start sticking. Closer inspection revevealed that the locking lugs on the barrel extension were deformed. Also the bolt locking lugs showed a fair amount of wear (to be expected) and the firing pin hole had become enlarged. This allowed primers to extrude into the bolt and further jam the rifle. It is my opinion based on these issues that the steel used in the BCG of the Norinco rifles is not nearly as hard as that used on Colt BCGs (the others I have some experience on long term use with). A top tier rifle should last past the 25k round range.
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Thanks for the info.
 
Shooting Centre said:
Here is one more data point to consider. We have run a few Norinco rifles on the range here over the past year. They proved to be quite reliable. However at about the 12,000-15,000 round point the bolt would start sticking. Closer inspection revevealed that the locking lugs on the barrel extension were deformed. Also the bolt locking lugs showed a fair amount of wear (to be expected) and the firing pin hole had become enlarged. This allowed primers to extrude into the bolt and further jam the rifle. It is my opinion based on these issues that the steel used in the BCG of the Norinco rifles is not nearly as hard as that used on Colt BCGs (the others I have some experience on long term use with). A top tier rifle should last past the 25k round range.
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I wondered about the BCG metals, hardness etc for the Norc. Thanks for sharing the info.
 
that is excellent to know! this is the kind of testing we need. do you guys run any other high or lower tier brands of ar15 to see wear and tear after a large volume of rounds. Is it safe to assume that the barrel was worn out (acceptable accuracy) well before 10k rounds?

Shooting Centre said:
Here is one more data point to consider. We have run a few Norinco rifles on the range here over the past year. They proved to be quite reliable. However at about the 12,000-15,000 round point the bolt would start sticking. Closer inspection revealed that the locking lugs on the barrel extension were deformed. Also the bolt locking lugs showed a fair amount of wear (to be expected) and the firing pin hole had become enlarged. This allowed primers to extrude into the bolt and further jam the rifle. It is my opinion based on these issues that the steel used in the BCG of the Norinco rifles is not nearly as hard as that used on Colt BCGs (the others I have some experience on long term use with). A top tier rifle should last past the 25k round range.
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Just to start this up again.........

Star Arms Left hand (LH2T) are used by Military and LE. They run equally well suppressed and are considered on par quality wise as Colt.
They need to be bumped a notch.

:p
 
UPDATE!!!!!!

AS OFF DEC. 24TH, 2012

Tier 0: ... UNAVAILABLE .
Tier 1: ... UNAVAILABLE .UNAVAILABLE . . UNAVAILABLE .. UNAVAILABLE . . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE
Tier 2: ... UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE. UNAVAILABLE. UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . CADEX»*
. . . . . . ... UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE» . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE
Tier 3: ... UNAVAILABLE»* . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . DLASKUNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE»
. . . . . . ... MOTIUK . UNAVAILABLE. UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE . UNAVAILABLE« . UNAVAILABLE
Tier -: ... NEA . NORINCO . UNAVAILABLE
 
There is Gentlemen in tennesse selling an HKMR762 for $6250.00, now the US is starting to feel what us Canadians did for years and years............
 
Stupid list is Stupid!

You do realize a so-called T3 makes lowers and uppers for some of your T2, same machines making the same stuff just a different roll mark.

edit to say :bigHug::bigHug::bigHug::bigHug: i just blew 556 on this stupid thread.
 
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