Are in-lines muzzleloaders??

[theDuck]

What most people don't realize is the original inlines date into the 1700's and were flint lock. The flint was held on what would be the end of a firing pin on cartridge guns. The frizzen was triangular and flipped up when the flint hit it. The pan and touch hole was at the end of the barrel in line with the bore.
If you look at the flint holder you see where the firing pin moved by a coil spring comes from in cartridge guns. When it comes to muzzle loaders, there is nothing really new under the sun. It's all about marketing.

 

[beefman]

That IS exactly the problem in some cases...increased harvest equals shorter seasons....but I suppose traditional MLers should probly just quit whining and welcome inlines and shorter seasons with open arms?

No...it seems the problem is people who want to protect their particular "niche" in the hunting season.

They are unwilling to compromise on season dates and/or harvest allocations, to give others an opportunity to hunt using their preferred method.

Ontario must be the home of wholesale slaughter...as we allow: in-line muzzleloaders, crossbows, and party hunting.

If we would learn to share...there would be no problem.

 

[woolly]

Thanks for clearing that up for me....I thought that an in-line was loaded from the breach end with a bag of powder and a slug like an artillery piece.

In-lines have the projectile, powder/pellets and ignition all in a straight line, thus "in-line"

Traditional muzzle loaders usually have the ignition source (percussion cap, match, flint, etc.) mounted on the side of the barrel. The ignition source must travel through a bend or bends before reaching the main charge.

 

[mooncoon]

Inline flintlocks and percussion guns may have existed historically but they certainly did not shoot saboted sub caliber jacketed slugs. The whole issue of inline vs traditional and of cross bow vs traditional bows revolves around seasons that were created for guns/bows that were of limited range and in the case of inlines has resulted in including guns of several times longer range than the special season was intended for. If there is no special season then no one cares but if there is a special season and it is lost then the traditionalists do care.
My impression of Ontario is that they have a superabundance of deer and could probably extend the regular season to include the muzzle loading season. At least hunting postings on this site within the past few years certainly seemed to imply that

cheers mooncoon

 

[Pepperpopper]

I've always been at the pure end of the spectrum as far as the stuff I use is concerned, I'm just motivated by challenge. Not necessarily successful. But from a management perspective, should we be surprised that there is often a bias to include as many people as can be accommodated? Sure it's a pain that the traditionalists in archery, muzzleloading, or regular firearms, should have put in all the work and set the early standards, only to be passed by people who want to dumb it down as much as possible. But few people hunting today belong to those groups, and everyone else is just out having fun. The fact is that there are about 4 different reasons for hunting. The three biggies in about equal measure are dominators, harvesters, and folks that like a challenge. So the majority don't care that something is made harder. And the wildlife people have to accommodate everyone.

 

[Smoke73]

Most people regardless of weapon choice shoot the majority of there game at 100 yards or less because most people don't shoot nearly as well as they claim. If anyone is shooting good with a gun that drops 2 feet at 225 they can probably figure it out if its dropping 3-4 feet. I am just trying to say the disadvantage of a muzlleloader isn't range it's reloadability. Snipers from the cival war prove my point. In short it doesn't matter what you shoot, if you want distance you can figure it out. And if traditionalists believe no one is shooting sabots in traditional guns with success they have only further buried there heads in the sand. The joy of a muzzleloader is figuring out how to make them shoot. With time and effort you can make anything work. My wife likes loading round balls so her inline runs a prb ahead of 80 grains goex bp and triple 7 primers. We shoot triple 7 powder in our percussion and have had good results with plinker sabots in our traditions trapper flintlock pistol. The point I'm trying to get to is give it a rest. We need to let our sport grow if it is to survive and that can only be done by appealling to the masses. Its kinda like the small town that chases out the box stores to keep things the way they were. Works great until the next generation comes along, drives 30 minutes to the nearest wallyworld and the town slowly dies. Give it some thought.

 

[mooncoon]

And if traditionalists believe no one is shooting sabots in traditional guns with success they have only further buried there heads in the sand.

I am baffled where you get that idea from; most traditionalists believe the inlines permit you to shoot deer successfully at 200 yards and perhaps beyond.
I am also puzzled by PepperPopper's closing comments; IMHO the reason for an inline is eliminating added challenge.

cheers mooncoon

 

[Smoke73]

All I am trying to say is that if you spend the time you may find a way to make your slow twist barrel shoot sabots well or your fast twist inline shoot prb. Most traditionalist would not even consider it let alone invest the time or money. I'm just saying you can shoot 200 yards and beyond with a traditional gun if thats your thing. It ain't mine and it obviously isn't your thing either but it's a mute point. The point is you get one shot and you had better make it count regardless of ignition source, sights, bullet selection. etc. I'd also like to point out that shooting inlines isn't the given that most traditionalists would like to believe. You don't just go buy a new rifle a handful of sabots and some bp supplement and start shooting moa groups. There is a ton of load workup that needs to be done just like a sidelock or flinty. I have all three and I know what it takes. I also know that a quality traditional gun with proper prceedures and load development will shoot every bit as well as a inline, maybe even better. The thousand yard traditional shooters prove it all the time. They even show the matches on TV. Accurate heavy powder charge, a high ballistic coefficent conical, adjustable long range lyman peep on a long barrelled 1-48 twist and you've got dead deer at 200 yards. Thats as traditional as it get. You wouldn't be a true rifleman if you didn't believe those old girls can shoot that well.

 

[catnthehatt]

All I am trying to say is that if you spend the time you may find a way to make your slow twist barrel shoot sabots well or your fast twist inline shoot prb. Most traditionalist would not even consider it let alone invest the time or money. I'm just saying you can shoot 200 yards and beyond with a traditional gun if thats your thing. It ain't mine and it obviously isn't your thing either but it's a mute point. The point is you get one shot and you had better make it count regardless of ignition source, sights, bullet selection. etc. I'd also like to point out that shooting inlines isn't the given that most traditionalists would like to believe. You don't just go buy a new rifle a handful of sabots and some bp supplement and start shooting moa groups. There is a ton of load workup that needs to be done just like a sidelock or flinty. I have all three and I know what it takes. I also know that a quality traditional gun with proper prceedures and load development will shoot every bit as well as a inline, maybe even better. The thousand yard traditional shooters prove it all the time. They even show the matches on TV. Accurate heavy powder charge, a high ballistic coefficent conical, adjustable long range lyman peep on a long barrelled 1-48 twist and you've got dead deer at 200 yards. Thats as traditional as it get. You wouldn't be a true rifleman if you didn't believe those old girls can shoot that well.

the civil war snipers you talked about were using specialized rifles using bullets as well, they were not hunting rifles.
I'm sure you have never met mooncoon or you would know that if he actually WANTED to shoot a sabotted load or a conical for that matter, he would - and be very accurate with it.
That is not the point .
And I know for a fact that a 1,000 yard slug gun is not what you would want to drag around in the bush hunting - crap even most BPCR rifles are a PIA to carry.
Cat

 

[Smoke73]

By some accounts for a enlisted man to be considered for a sniper program (forgive me I do not remember if confederate or union) the rifleman had to hit a 10 inch gong 10 out of 10 times at 200 yards with a rifle of his own choosing. Most likely the one he brought with him from the hills.

I am not singling out mooncoon or anyone else. I'm just tring to point out that we all have choices to make about the rifles we use and how we load them and as far as I'm concerned the 100 yard limitation most people place on there traditional weopons is really a personal one. It also applies to modern arms. I would never consider taking a shot with a modern rifle at 1000 yards yet every day there are programs on tv were people do just that.

To reiterate my original point change is a must if something is to survive. The only reason you can walk in most sporting goods stores and find the level of muzzleloader equipment we do is do to the fact that inlines are popular. They are promoted welll and people have responded. If the traditionalist want to prove there merits do some promotion. Win the argument through teaching and education not through complaining that someone has something better. In years past people in business used to go head to head fiercly competing. You will still find this mentality to some degree but most successful business men now days have learned that through co-operation with other rivals there own goals can be met and most often surpassed. Can the shooting community not see this will work for them too.

So as not to further offend anyone else I'll gracefully bow out after this post.

 

[tiriaq]

Many muzzleloading rifles were made in Pennsylvania, most of the so-called Kentucky rifles. Part of the historical heritage of the state. There is a long established tradition. The state's primitive weapons season chooses to respect this aspect of their history. Flintlocks only.
Is it about harvesting game, or about culture and tradition?

 

[lyman54]

I suppose the same arguments could be made about modern compound bows. I don't hunt so I prefer the side hammer rifles just because of the history. If I was hunting I guess I would want to improve my chances. The inlines do have their advantages as do the modern bows. Each to their own.

 

[sheephunter]

If there is no special season then no one cares but if there is a special season and it is lost then the traditionalists do care.

If only that were the case. From what I've seen of many of the traditionalists, if they couldn't whine about in-lines they'd explode. I keep hearing that in-lines provide some unfair advantage but I'm unsure what the advantage is. Do in-line hunters prevent you from killing your game? Do in-line hunters prevent you from enjoying your hunt? So what if you can't shoot as far as an in-line...that's your choice but I fail to see how it detracts from your hunt. Sounds like petty jealousy to me and nothing more. I'm certainly not aware of all the ML seasons in North America but I'm unaware of any being lost because of in-line hunters. Perhaps I'm wrong?

 

[grinrgrn]

Well SH,a large influx of in-lines into "traditional/primitive weapons seasons" certainly does have the potential to affect the traditionalists hunt.Mooncoon says they have lost season(s) in BC,and I cited a similair example in PQ where the addition of x-bows to the archery season has resulted in higher than anticipated success rates and the season will have to be adjusted accordingly.

Game managers don't just hand out extra opportunities/seasons all willy-nilly and say "have at'er"....no,they predetermine a desired harvest quota and predict success rates to determine season length.If the success rate goes up dramatically as the result of more liberal guidelines concerning what weapons are legal to use,ie:in-lines and x-bows allowed during ML and bow seasons,then the season length needs to be reduced to keep harvests within the desired quota.

Crowded public land and a shortened season certainly sounds to me like it would affect the quality and experience of a hunt.As a sheephunter,I'm sure you can relate to limited entry,lottery hunts.You probably wait years in some cases for the opportunity to hunt a specific region or species,but you are willing to wait for your chance at that quality hunt,without crowds,and most likely plenty of hunting season to get'er done?If the sheep quota for "Zone X" is 100 sheep,and they give out 200 tags expecting a 50% success rate over a 4 week season....why not just sell 1000 tags and shoot for a 10% success rate over a 5 day season?Same bloody thing.Only your "once in a lifetime" hunt has been tarnished,the duration of the hunt reduced,the quality of the experience has suffered,the mountain is crowded instead of wild and secluded.......Zone X is not so attractive now is it?Traditional hunters could then sit back and say how the greedy sheephunters would probly explode if they couldn't whine about too many people on "their" mountain.

 

[sheephunter]

Traditional hunters could then sit back and say how the greedy sheephunters would probly explode if they couldn't whine about too many people on "their" mountain.

Possibly but the difference is that all the sheep hunters I know encourage new hunters t get out in the mountains, regardless of weapon and see what it's all about. This new influx of sheep hunters in Alberta may actually end up putting some areas on draw due to increased pressure. I see this as a great thing as it means our hunting hertiage is strong. If I just have to work a little harder and smarter to be successful, I won't complain. I guess it's possible some might whine about it though... I'm guessing being from St John that you are a bit out of touch with sheep hunters and their feelings about the public's mountains. On the other hand, I'm very familiar with traditional ML shooters. BTW, I often head afield with a caplock.......because I enjoy all muzzleloaders.

 

[grinrgrn]

I'm guessing being from St John that you are a bit out of touch with sheep hunters and their feelings about the public's mountains.

I was just using the sheephunter scenario as an example of how increased hunting pressure has no choice but to result in shorter seasons from a conservation and management perspective.Nothing personal.And no,I don't know much about sheep being from NB,other than that the sheep in Sussex get nervous when the farm boyz get lickered up on Saturday night,lol.

 

[sheephunter]

I was just using the sheephunter scenario as an example of how increased hunting pressure has no choice but to result in shorter seasons from a conservation and management perspective.Nothing personal.And no,I don't know much about sheep being from NB,other than that the sheep in Sussex get nervous when the farm boyz get lickered up on Saturday night,lol.

Ah, that explains the poor anaology...

 

[grinrgrn]

Actually,I'm pretty sure it may well be my NB perspective that has me on the defensive and opposed to x-bows and in-lines,even though there is no ML season here but we are facing the possibility of x-bows being legalised in the near future,to which as a bowhunter I am strongly opposed.

The thing is,I hunt a whitetail herd here that could very well be in the absolute worst shape of any provincial or state herd on the continent?While most of the rest of North America's whitetail herds are stable,growing,or exploding,ours has been shrinking steadily and drastically over the last 3 decades.Therefore,I get more than a bit defensive when wannabe bowhunters want to legalise x-bows to take advantage of the longer season and lesser safe discharge distance requirements so they can hunt the few strongholds of urban deer because they can't find a deer in the bigwoods.

Modern forestry practices,coupled with a "relatively new" apex predator in the Eastern Coyote,along with harsh winters have decimated our herd since the 1980's.We had app. 250,000 deer then,best guess now is around 60,000 going into this winter?The days of bigwoods deer hunting in NB are all but over I'm afraid,and with the way our Crown forests are being raped by the forest industry,they will NEVER return to their former glory barring some apocolyptic,"life after mankind" type of event.

 

[mooncoon]

Alberta may actually end up putting some areas on draw due to increased pressure. I see this as a great thing as it means our hunting hertiage is strong. If I just have to work a little harder

I think going to an LEH being a good thing is relative to the odds. If Alberta is just now thinking of doing it, I would suspect the odds of being drawn are probably not going to be too bad say 50/50 so that even if you miss drawing this year, you probably will get one next year. Contrast that with elk on Vancouver Island; a few years ago the odds of being drawn were 150:1. It would take 3 lifetimes to be guaranteed one draw. the LEH is necessary to protect the animals but it can hardly be said to be of minor importance in terms of a person's ability to hunt.

cheers mooncoon

 

[sheephunter]

I think going to an LEH being a good thing is relative to the odds. If Alberta is just now thinking of doing it, I would suspect the odds of being drawn are probably not going to be too bad say 50/50 so that even if you miss drawing this year, you probably will get one next year. Contrast that with elk on Vancouver Island; a few years ago the odds of being drawn were 150:1. It would take 3 lifetimes to be guaranteed one draw. the LEH is necessary to protect the animals but it can hardly be said to be of minor importance in terms of a person's ability to hunt.

cheers mooncoon

LOL...apparently you don't know much about sheep draws in Alberta and I have no idea how the ML debate fits into the Vancouver Island elk draw. Regardless, in-lines are muzzleloaders......the question the OP asked. Enough of the predictable sidetracks from the traditionalists on a thread that had nothing to do with traditional MLs, it is getting tired.