Are we able to sell?

[tiriaq]

Every firearm in the country, and most in the whole world, are listed in the FRT. It is a catalogue.
The classifications reflect decisions that have been made. Some of the classifications are solid. Legislation specifically classifies full autos as prohibited, and the FRT entries for machine guns this.
Other determinations may be based upon opinion and interpretation.
Barring a court decision, who is to say whether all the post OIC classifications are valid?
There are challenges pending.

 

[Munkey1973]

Just put of curiosity.....is there a record of anyone actually being charged with breaching this FRT, or is it mainly used as an intimidation tactic towards those whom go above and beyond in digging out info as far as making sure they are still legal?

Because I would be willing to go out on a limb saying, that your average gun owner out there has no idea what the FRT is.
I see FRT items on Gun Post on regular bases...

You nailed it ! .... your average gun owner has absolutely no clue. The guy who I took my PAL/RPAL course from was one of the most knowledgeable guys I ever met in the Regina Firearms community.... never heard him discuss (even in passing) what the FRT is. Like I mentioned in previous posts on this thread... if the FRT was to change (on a whim) for guns as common as the Ruger 10/22, then there would be tonnes of discussion on this topic.

 

[Munkey1973]

I was going to bring my ATRS to the range this Saturday but didn’t, I walk into the clubhouse and seen a few members sitting down with coffees and decided to ask them if it’s ok to bring my rifle… honestly it was like speaking to anti gun guys cause as soon as I mentioned that the rifle was on the FRT list they immediately started saying no no no you can’t bring that… pure bull####

Sounds like your club's board and/or senior members choose to err on the side of caution as they are uninformed or unsure... as a lot of them do.


Provincial CFOs hold a lot of power, they can shut a range down the drop of a hat if they so choose to.
If have my facts straight... it was the Alberta CFO that actually put the stop on ATRS from producing/selling the Modern Sporter... it was not the RCMP.
I could be wrong about this.

I think it was 2017, the Sask CFO at that time had shutdown 2 of 3 ranges that I frequented for re-certification and re-inspection... and God knows how many others.

 

[CZ Shooter]

You nailed it ! .... your average gun ownerhas absolutely no clue. The guy who I took my PAL/RPAL course from was one of the most knowledgeable guys I ever met in the Regina Firearms community.... never heard him discuss (even in passing) what the FRT is. Like I mentioned in previous posts on this thread... if the FRT was to change (on a whim) for guns as common as the Ruger 10/22, then there would be tonnes of discussion on this topic.

I think it goes back to what is reasonable.
For example, I never got any official information from any authorities, advising me about the Ruger 10/22 higher capacity mags now being considered "prohibited" due a whim of some bureaucrat(s) within the system.

So if someone got charged using this magazine in their Ruger 10/22 for example, how is that person supposed to know about some inside refference table being used to re-classify their previously legally purchased item as prohibited?

I honestly can't see any charges of this nature not being thrown out, just based on the fact that nobody was officially informed about this...

In theory, these clowns can re-classify just about anything at any time without telling us about it...

 

[no-one special]

Much of the firearms act is very vague. This was done on purpose so the interpretation of the act and laws could be twisted as need be by LE and the courts.
The problem with being charged under any of the gun laws is the burden of proof is on the accused. Ignorance of the law does not work.
My belief is that much of the power that LE, CFO etc. etc. have is pure intimidation. They don't have to worry in the least what the cost of litigation might be.
Most people do not relish the thought of making their lawyer richer by many thousands of dollars to defend themselves from charges laid whether they have merit or not.

 

[themarauder]

Much of the firearms act is very vague. This was done on purpose so the interpretation of the act and laws could be twisted as need be by LE and the courts.
The problem with being charged under any of the gun laws is the burden of proof is on the accused. Ignorance of the law does not work.
My belief is that much of the power that LE, CFO etc. etc. have is pure intimidation. They don't have to worry in the least what the cost of litigation might be.
Most people do not relish the thought of making their lawyer richer by many thousands of dollars to defend themselves from charges laid whether they have merit or not.

And of course, if you lose you could lose more than just a court fight over the legality of your seized gun. You could lose your freedom, your money, your job, your house, your family... and good luck leaving the country again with that weapons charge on your record. Quite a chance to take, and you're right, they're counting on that.

 

[Taurkon]

For what it's worth, I own an ATRS MS and have not stopped shooting it since it was changed in the FRT. As many have pointed out, the ATRS MS (using this example) was deemed prohibited weeks after the IOC on May 1st, 2020 BUT is not listed on the OIC. Here is my caution however.... the MS looks like an AR-15 for all intents to the average LEO or CO. I bring mine to my range, as they are fully aware of what it is, and they have similar opinions on the FRT. I rarely take it to crown land though, although my son in-law who has the same rifle shoots it on crown land frequently. I'm not willing to risk at this time, and am waiting (and supporting) Alberta Tactical before I go 'full public'.

 

[Shorerider]

Before taking one to a range I would ask them. I enquired at my range and since they are a law enforcing training range they have taken the position of if it’s listed prohibited they don’t want it on the property. While it sucks and I know the president think the whole thing is BS they don’t want to risk the club getting in trouble due to an uninformed officer.

As far as crown land goes you’re putting yourself at risk of being arrested and charged with possession of a prohibited firearm. Will the charges stick in court? Your guess is as good as mine. The FRT isn’t law and you’d have a strong case. But the officer on the side of the road is still going to give you some silver bracelets to wear. You will spend at least the night in jail. And you will lose the rest of your firearms and probably never get them back.

 

[kodiakjack]

Before taking one to a range I would ask them. I enquired at my range and since they are a law enforcing training range they have taken the position of if it’s listed prohibited they don’t want it on the property. While it sucks and I know the president think the whole thing is BS they don’t want to risk the club getting in trouble due to an uninformed officer.

As far as crown land goes you’re putting yourself at risk of being arrested and charged with possession of a prohibited firearm. Will the charges stick in court? Your guess is as good as mine. The FRT isn’t law and you’d have a strong case. But the officer on the side of the road is still going to give you some silver bracelets to wear. You will spend at least the night in jail. And you will lose the rest of your firearms and probably never get them back.

With respect, I think you’re painting that scenario with quite a bit of “chicken little” attitude. More than is warranted I’d say.

The vast majority of front line LEOs are reasonable and if you calmly explain to them that your firearm is in fact NOT prohibited, they’ll take your information and be on their way.

Just be prepared.

Carry a copy of the FRT disclaimer noting that it is not law, and is superseded by the actual regulations:

And then also carry a copy of the ACTUAL regulations, showing your firearm absent from the list:


https://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2020/2020-05-01-x3/html/sor-dors96-eng.html


As I said earlier, I hunted all spring on public land (in southern Ontario) with an FRT-Pseudoban shotgun, and was never worried about it. The law (for now) is on your side.

 

[seamus]

Just put of curiosity.....is there a record of anyone actually being charged with breaching this FRT, or is it mainly used as an intimidation tactic towards those whom go above and beyond in digging out info as far as making sure they are still legal?

Because I would be willing to go out on a limb saying, that your average gun owner out there has no idea what the FRT is.
I see FRT items on Gun Post on regular bases...

Maybe Shawn Bevins when he was charged for the butler creek 10/22 mag? Can't remember if that was banned by FRT or not though.

 

[Sniffer]

I was going to bring my ATRS to the range this Saturday but didn’t, I walk into the clubhouse and seen a few members sitting down with coffees and decided to ask them if it’s ok to bring my rifle… honestly it was like speaking to anti gun guys cause as soon as I mentioned that the rifle was on the FRT list they immediately started saying no no no you can’t bring that… pure bull####

Not sure what their gun of choice was but I hope you politely remind them of this stance when they find themselves in the same boat - because in Trudeau's Kanada that day is coming.

 

[Sniffer]

For what it's worth, I own an ATRS MS and have not stopped shooting it since it was changed in the FRT. As many have pointed out, the ATRS MS (using this example) was deemed prohibited weeks after the IOC on May 1st, 2020 BUT is not listed on the OIC. Here is my caution however.... the MS looks like an AR-15 for all intents to the average LEO or CO. I bring mine to my range, as they are fully aware of what it is, and they have similar opinions on the FRT. I rarely take it to crown land though, although my son in-law who has the same rifle shoots it on crown land frequently. I'm not willing to risk at this time, and am waiting (and supporting) Alberta Tactical before I go 'full public'.

And here lies the problem. Unless they are up to speed what a Modern Sporter is they will assume it is an AR15 and unleash an expensive #### storm (lawyers / courts etc).

 

[thegazelle]

As far as crown land goes you’re putting yourself at risk of being arrested and charged with possession of a prohibited firearm. Will the charges stick in court? Your guess is as good as mine. The FRT isn’t law and you’d have a strong case. But the officer on the side of the road is still going to give you some silver bracelets to wear. You will spend at least the night in jail. And you will lose the rest of your firearms and probably never get them back.

This reminds me of a thread to which Ed Burlew, a well respected firearms lawyer and a member of this site, posted something. The topic was the legality of the LAR15 magazines since it has now fallen into a grey zone area. Mr. Burlew said that he has had clients who have been approached/confronted by officers, who did not know the ins and outs of the legality of the use of LAR15 mags. His clients were charged, and had to go to court, and while they were ultimately found not guilty of breaking the law, it took immense time and financial resources (both of which they never back() to get to that point. Ian Runkle has also cautioned his viewers on grey zone items like this. Will any officer know what the FRT says / doesn't say, what is banned / not banned by the OIC? I would think some officers who are not that familiar with firearms aside from their service weapon (I know numerous officers in this situation including some family members), would see something that "looks" like an AR15 (which they would know is OIC-banned) - will you get arrested and charged? Maybe, maybe not. Guess it depends on your risk tolerance and how well you discern the officers' knowledge of firearms.

Also if you look at the Polys' recent list of stuff they want banned - there are a lot of PCCs on that list, and they call them "assault weapons". We are fighting both a public perception and public ignorance of gun classification as well. Some officers are not immune to this and have even bought into the narrative to a degree. One of the many times I had interactions with the police over the years, I asked them about a Glock mag for .40S&W that my ex stole out of my car and tried to claim I owned handguns illegally. I explained to the officer at the station it was for a PCC which I legally owned. He said that is a handgun magazine - what are you using it for if not a handgun. Again I had to explain what a PCC was to him. I had to tell him the make/model of the PCC I was using and he looked online, and sure enough he was like "huh" (lightbulb going off huh) realizing that these Glock mags don't just go into handguns. I mean, if I had to educate him (and he was in his 50s and a detective), I can imagine that there are others who are not aware of all the nuances of firearms classifications and what is legal and what is not.

 

[Shorerider]

With respect, I think you’re painting that scenario with quite a bit of “chicken little” attitude. More than is warranted I’d say.

The vast majority of front line LEOs are reasonable and if you calmly explain to them that your firearm is in fact NOT prohibited, they’ll take your information and be on their way.

Just be prepared.

Carry a copy of the FRT disclaimer noting that it is not law, and is superseded by the actual regulations:

And then also carry a copy of the ACTUAL regulations, showing your firearm absent from the list:


https://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2020/2020-05-01-x3/html/sor-dors96-eng.html


As I said earlier, I hunted all spring on public land (in southern Ontario) with an FRT-Pseudoban shotgun, and was never worried about it. The law (for now) is on your side.

What you say is fair. And the one dealing I had with the cops way up a logging road was a good one. But they had no communication back to verify anything we said on the side of the road and weren’t knowledgeable enough to argue what we were saying to them. My buddy had an SU-16 with the pistol grip stock and they thought it looked like an AR and we’re unsure as it it’s classification. Now this was also 8 or so years ago so long before any of the current changes to the regulations. I do carry a copy of the FRT for the MS as well as the SLR and WK180 in my range bag. But you never know what kind of attitude you will get from a cop on the side of the road. I was given a vehicle inspection ticket by a cop who decided I had all kinds of modifications to my truck even though they couldn’t see any of them. And I was super polite to them, they just had a nasty attitude towards me for some reason.

 

[Bman12456]

There is a HUGE difference between being a coward and being suicidal as a business and known entity.
Yes we "could" have defied the CFO's demands at the risk of her opting to shut us down by force and jailing us with a great number of charges of trafficking in prohibited weapons and then letting a judge sort it all out in a year or 2 at great cost. By great cost I am talking weapons charges that don't go away ever even if the judge finds your way, several hundred thousands of dollars in legal costs, the total loss of my business and staff. An unknown amount of time in incarceration and most likely the loss of my house and assets. OR worse as we recently learned from Rogers "execution" in Ontario.

The cowards are those who choose to roll over without any resistance and give up or in the lack of help for those few of us who are actually putting up a fight for gun owners in general in whats left of Canada.

Im not sure where you got that I was calling yourself or your company cowards. You are literally fighting this in court right now, that is all we can expect from a company. I am referring to people that are afraid to buy/sell/shoot FRT banned firearms.

They are legal, there are no ifs ands or buts. The RCMP does not currently have the legal authority to reclassify firearms. If this court case changes that it is another thing entirely. But the FRT IS NOT a legal document by their own admission.

Get legal defense insurance and go shoot your guns people. The more people doing it the better our chances are. If it comes down to it, fight it in court because that is what it is going to take for the RCMP to stop stepping on our ####ing necks.

 

[Bman12456]

Just put of curiosity.....is there a record of anyone actually being charged with breaching this FRT, or is it mainly used as an intimidation tactic towards those whom go above and beyond in digging out info as far as making sure they are still legal?

Because I would be willing to go out on a limb saying, that your average gun owner out there has no idea what the FRT is.
I see FRT items on Gun Post on regular bases...

That is EXACTLY what theyre banking on. The call it prohibited even though it isn't, and rely on fear of prosecution to enforce it because they don't actually have the legal authority to enforce it. Non compliance is the ONLY route.

 

[Brian46]

So are we able to bring are ATRS to the range then if the FRT isn’t law or what, if so I’m f’n pissed for keeping mine at home!

Ultimately up to you and the level of risk you are willing to subject yourself to.

In BC there are ranges where LEO have set up road checks on the access road and even go to the ranges themselves in an enforcement capacity, I have witnessed both first hand.

If the LEO will take issue with what fireararms you have in your possession at that time is a complete unknown

 

[thegazelle]

In BC there are ranges where LEO have set up road checks on the access road and even go to the ranges themselves in an enforcement capacity, I have witnessed both first hand.
If the LEO will take issue with what fireararms you have in your possession at that time is a complete unknown

This is interesting and something that I have not considered up to now. I always thought that if anyone is "inspected" it is LEOs doing it to people shooting on crown land, etc. Never thought they would position themselves outside of access roads to ranges as random spot checks of range members.

 

[jiffx2781]

Believe me, I don't take for granted the fact that I can simply step out my back door and shoot my guns.

 

[Munkey1973]

Ultimately up to you and the level of risk you are willing to subject yourself to.

In BC there are ranges where LEO have set up road checks on the access road and even go to the ranges themselves in an enforcement capacity, I have witnessed both first hand.

If the LEO will take issue with what fireararms you have in your possession at that time is a complete unknown

That makes me sick really... all of the law enforcement resource used to monitor those that are legally allowed to own guns.

Those are resources that could better be put use monitoring those that are NOT ALLOWED to own guns.