Are you a Keith or O'Conner advocate
- Thread starter Lefty Dick
- Start date
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Yes, you would think so...I never spoke to him of courseAnd I don't recall reading him talk about small caliber (like 277 or 308) partitions, but I sure haven't read all of his writing. I do recall reading about him using them in a .375.
Regardless, Elmer's "theories" are pretty dated when it comes to hunting rifle cartridges. Who honestly can say here that a man with a 7mm Remington Magnum and good 160grain bullets won't be able to slay all of North Americas game animals without too much trouble?
If you asked Elmer, he would tell you that a 7RM is only good for rodents and coyote, which is completely ridiculous.
The rifle hunting community has overwhelmingly gone the "small and fast" route over the "big slow and heavy" route.
With handguns, I think the big slow and heavy route is the best still. As they are short range and weak weapons, flattening trajectory isn't really required. (short range weapons for those of us that can't hit a mule deer at 400 yards with a .44 Magnum, that is)
Then that may be a good starting point for you. And when you do, keep in mind it wasn't 2009 but many years prior to.
Agreed, but once again you prove hinde sight is 20-20. When you compare the individuals in question, do so in the appropiate era.
Gone small and fast. That means it must be so
. Again, think of the era of the individuals in question. We're not talking of today and today isn't the time frame of comparison.Handguns, used by someone competent, may not have the capabilities of a high power rifle, but I wouldn't classify them as "weak'. Well, unless you're wearing a pink tu tu
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M12shooter
CGN frequent flyer
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- East St. Paul, mb
O'Connor was a stern hard nosed gun person that based all his writing on fact and life experience. Kieth also had plenty of gun savvy but had the tendency to "embellish" some of his claims...IMO. Small and fast was/is the way of the future.
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Well, I don't believe so, but give example of these "emblishments". From anyones account that shot or hunted with him, I've never heard any mention of it.
They're all gone now but the way things played out, Elmer lost, O'Conner won. By Keith a .270 was a coyote gun and a 30-06 was barely a deer rifle. Does anyone believe that now?
O'Conner was about more than the .270. He said that if he could only have one rifle for the world it would be a .375, 2 and it would be a .375 and a .270. Pretty hard to find something you can't kill with that combo, pretty hard to find a situation that you wouldn't have covered very well.
O'Conner was about more than the .270. He said that if he could only have one rifle for the world it would be a .375, 2 and it would be a .375 and a .270. Pretty hard to find something you can't kill with that combo, pretty hard to find a situation that you wouldn't have covered very well.
This is truly what O'Conner was. "The right tool for the job" kind of hunter. I've read a great deal of what he wrote and Jack was far from the "light and fast only" camp. He hunted alot with the .270 because quite simply the .270 with the right bullet is perfect for alot of the worlds game. Common sense has a hard time not winning. Doesn't it?
I look back in Gun books I have from the 40's and 60's and keep wondering how hunters managed to fill the ice house with game using such rifles as the Hollands Apex in 240 super express.
w w w.gunsinternational.com/H&H-TAKEDOWN---240-APEX----MAUSER-ACTION---CASED---DETACH-MT.cfm?gun_id=100073401
And the 280 Ross, 7x57 Mauser, 303 brit etc etc.
I blame gun mag writers who are getting checks and other payouts from ammo companies for this nonsense to make some believe in this silly arms race.
w w w.gunsinternational.com/H&H-TAKEDOWN---240-APEX----MAUSER-ACTION---CASED---DETACH-MT.cfm?gun_id=100073401
And the 280 Ross, 7x57 Mauser, 303 brit etc etc.
I blame gun mag writers who are getting checks and other payouts from ammo companies for this nonsense to make some believe in this silly arms race.
Guess it depends on the capabilities of a person on what cartridge they consider to be what is right for them.
If all you can shoot accurately is a 270 then that should be the cartridge that you should hunt with.
Here is a little known fact O'Conner secretly agreed with Kieth and shared those thoughts with only his closest friends who did not share them until after he died but due to his dislike for Kieth he was stuck promoting the small fast cartridge.
Kieth never agreed with O'Conner...
If all you can shoot accurately is a 270 then that should be the cartridge that you should hunt with.
Here is a little known fact O'Conner secretly agreed with Kieth and shared those thoughts with only his closest friends who did not share them until after he died but due to his dislike for Kieth he was stuck promoting the small fast cartridge.
Kieth never agreed with O'Conner...
Just goes to show the clever and ahead of it's time thinking of the Norwegian and Swedes when they co developed the 6.5x55 cartridge in 1891, which is still taking Scandinavian Moose every season.
I'm a +1 on the "both have merit".
And yeah, a big fan of the 6.5x55mm. Which is kinda middle road. Small caliber that isn't setting any ctg land speed/velocity records but seems to get the job done nevertheless....
NAA.
I think it boils down to what are you are hunting. A cape Buffalo with a .270 or antelope with a .375 H+H
For some antelope a .375 is a first class choice. On the otherhand I can't think of anywhere that the .270 would be legal for buffalo, so the problem sort of fixes itself.
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Sure, as I said- Elmers theories are dated....Period.
His suggestion of "big slow and heavy" being the "ONLY" way are complete BS in this day and age. There is nothing in North America that I wouldn't hunt with a 30-06/7mm RM and a good bullet- Nothing. And to suggest that it is a poor choice would be simply ridiculous. It's been done, lots of times, regardless of Elmers old ideas.
Sure they are weak, compared to an average hunting rifle. A 30-06 trumps virtually all handgun cartridges. Not saying handguns are ineffective if used within their parameters, but most hunting rifles outclass them easily.
Then that may be a good starting point for you. And when you do, keep in mind it wasn't 2009 but many years prior to.
Agreed, but once again you prove hinde sight is 20-20. When you compare the individuals in question, do so in the appropiate era.
Gone small and fast. That means it must be so
Sure, as I said- Elmers theories are dated....Period.
His suggestion of "big slow and heavy" being the "ONLY" way are complete BS in this day and age. There is nothing in North America that I wouldn't hunt with a 30-06/7mm RM and a good bullet- Nothing. And to suggest that it is a poor choice would be simply ridiculous. It's been done, lots of times, regardless of Elmers old ideas.
Handguns, used by someone competent, may not have the capabilities of a high power rifle, but I wouldn't classify them as "weak'. Well, unless you're wearing a pink tu tu
Sure they are weak, compared to an average hunting rifle. A 30-06 trumps virtually all handgun cartridges. Not saying handguns are ineffective if used within their parameters, but most hunting rifles outclass them easily.
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Only those that cling to silly ideals that a 30-06 won't kill an elk or moose. As much as I like the premium bullets, my dad never had any issue killing moose with his 30-06 and whatever ammo he bought at the hardware store. And that was in the 1950'/60's, so Elmer must have been using some really effed up bullets if they werent' doing the job...
A .223/22-250 class cartridge, a .270/7RM/30-06/300 and a .375/416 will do it all...And it' all most hunters need.
Only those that cling to silly ideals that a 30-06 won't kill an elk or moose. As much as I like the premium bullets, my dad never had any issue killing moose with his 30-06 and whatever ammo he bought at the hardware store. And that was in the 1950'/60's, so Elmer must have been using some really effed up bullets if they werent' doing the job...
A .223/22-250 class cartridge, a .270/7RM/30-06/300 and a .375/416 will do it all...And it' all most hunters need.
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You've gotta look at their backgrounds, ......Jack today would be "urban", and Elmer would be "rural bushman". Elmer grew up hunting to put meat on the table, ....sport had nothing to do with getting the game down now!
Jack tended to hunt open areas whereas Elmer stuck to the wooded areas and wooded mountains. In Elmer's backyard there were bears and things that may eat you, so you needed something to handle them also. He wanted game down now and not have to spend time following or losing a wounded animal. Sport be damned, in Elmer's world nothing could be too dead! And he spent lots of time guiding. He wrote about the good clients, but didn't say much about the ones that lost or wounded game, .....so he was prejudiced towards calibers that anchored stuff right away. A graze with a .270 may result in a lost animal, ....a graze with a big .45 will do more damage and may save a few hours tracking.
Jack was a sportsman, didn't like recoil and heavy firearms. He was articulate, much better schooled than Elmer, and therefore a better writer and to many his appeal was greater.
Bullets and powders today are greatly improved from their heyday, so you have to apply the standards of their days and what they had to work with.
I knew them both and they each had my respect. Lots of memoraphelia from both.
Personally, as I aged I felt more of a bond with Elmer and where he was coming from, and now agree with his philosophy of "the bigger calibers make for an easier life". I spend a lot more time hunting deer with a .405 or .45, but do have days when it's the .260 or .284.
Their arguments in the magazines were a great selling point, and they both milked it for the marketing end, ....really was just a game, they both had lots of respect for each other, and now when they're both gone we should do the same and respect each for what they believed and wrote. .....there'll never be another Jack or Elmer in our lifetime!!
Jack tended to hunt open areas whereas Elmer stuck to the wooded areas and wooded mountains. In Elmer's backyard there were bears and things that may eat you, so you needed something to handle them also. He wanted game down now and not have to spend time following or losing a wounded animal. Sport be damned, in Elmer's world nothing could be too dead! And he spent lots of time guiding. He wrote about the good clients, but didn't say much about the ones that lost or wounded game, .....so he was prejudiced towards calibers that anchored stuff right away. A graze with a .270 may result in a lost animal, ....a graze with a big .45 will do more damage and may save a few hours tracking.
Jack was a sportsman, didn't like recoil and heavy firearms. He was articulate, much better schooled than Elmer, and therefore a better writer and to many his appeal was greater.
Bullets and powders today are greatly improved from their heyday, so you have to apply the standards of their days and what they had to work with.
I knew them both and they each had my respect. Lots of memoraphelia from both.
Personally, as I aged I felt more of a bond with Elmer and where he was coming from, and now agree with his philosophy of "the bigger calibers make for an easier life". I spend a lot more time hunting deer with a .405 or .45, but do have days when it's the .260 or .284.
Their arguments in the magazines were a great selling point, and they both milked it for the marketing end, ....really was just a game, they both had lots of respect for each other, and now when they're both gone we should do the same and respect each for what they believed and wrote. .....there'll never be another Jack or Elmer in our lifetime!!
I wonder how it is possible that I saw those small bullets from a .223, 22 fireball, .270 Win managing to kill black bear, deer and moose (respectively)
Must be magic, since all of them toppled over within 3-4 steps.
Maybe Elmer would have called me a liar?
Must be magic, since all of them toppled over within 3-4 steps.
Maybe Elmer would have called me a liar?
beretta boy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Orillia, Ontario
Read virtually everything by both ... thier books, plus a ton of O'Connor's monthly columns as well as a boatload of Keith's articles. I don't think either "had it right" ... although both made a good living at it ... so they couldn't have had it too far wrong, either !
Jack, (the "Professor") was much more the polished journalist , Elmer (a cross between Mr. Magoo and Foghorn Leghorn ) more the story teller. Both made their point and both made entertaining reading. Most of todays "gunscribes" don't have nearly the character (nor experiance) of either.
I have a much harder time trying to decide whom I enjoy reading more ... Gordon McQuarrie or Gene Hill !
Jack, (the "Professor") was much more the polished journalist , Elmer (a cross between Mr. Magoo and Foghorn Leghorn ) more the story teller. Both made their point and both made entertaining reading. Most of todays "gunscribes" don't have nearly the character (nor experiance) of either.
I have a much harder time trying to decide whom I enjoy reading more ... Gordon McQuarrie or Gene Hill !
I've read a ton of stuff by both. As others have said Jack used whatever was appropriate for the task at had. He used the 270 for most Deer and Elk hunting but also the 06. For big Bears the 375 was the ticket. Keith was total old school and liked the pumpkin ball throwers. The single exception being the 338/378 KT, deffinately a relatively light bullet high speed number. Personnally I don't think there's a right or wrong. That said my Deer gun the last couple of years has been an STW, was out shooting my 45/70 Guide gun and 460 WBY last night. If anything I'd say big and fast.
I wonder how it is possible that I saw those small bullets from a .223, 22 fireball, .270 Win managing to kill black bear, deer and moose (respectively)
Must be magic, since all of them toppled over within 3-4 steps.
Maybe Elmer would have called me a liar?
So you taking one of those small bullets/cartridges on your grizzly hunt or are you taking a cartridge combo that reflects Elmer's thinking?
