Are you/will you be a T97 owner?
- Thread starter harbl_the_cat
- Start date
I'm not an early adopter. I'm waiting for v1.2.
Yup!
Maybe in a back alley. Otherwise, hahhaha stop drinking the red Koolaid!!
Well these rifles actually show the flaws with the Chinese system. Their modern bullpup while great for our market and a lot of fun are significantly behind in their firearm designs. From what I'm seeing they have people designing using good technology but not really knowing what they are doing. There seems to be absolutely no feedback from those actually using the equipment. The system seems to allow for following orders but not expression of intelligence or people saying hey wait as second we can do this better. Looks like a bad business model to me where everyone is too afraid to provide a view point and only follows orders. How else do you explain the ergonomics on the T97? I'm seeing a nation that has no problem copying everything they can get their hands on but doesn't have the creativity to produce something top notch on their own. I'm not referring to the individual but rather the industrial, economic, political, and social system of that Nation. Honestly it seems like they are about 30 years behind Western civilization in many areas. I think as the Chinese population gets a real taste for Capitalism that the empire you so favour will have some scary times ahead, much like the former Soviet Union.
usually stuff made in China is crap... we can all agree.
But firearms made in Communist countries for their military are usually great! ... and I see no reason why the T97 should be different.
p.s. Please don't waste my time with whether China is/or is not a Communist country. I have things that require my attention more than internet squabbles ... thanks
p.p.s Also I know the T97 we are getting wasn't made for there military... but it is based off that rifle
*gad damn internet, always having to back yourself up to avoid the armchair experts from nerding out on you... sigh*
Apple corporation, one of the most iconic businesses of our generation literally has stamped on every one of their products:
"Designed in California Assembled in China"
That is a tacit admission that the US is capable of imagining great ideas, but completely lacking the ability to realize them, and so they have to have the Chinese build it for them.
That's like a thirty year old Nuclear Brain Surgeon Ph.D who might be absolutely brilliant, but lives in his parents basement and plays Call of Duty all day, while collecting welfare checks paid for by taxes extorted from actual hardworking individuals.
China is NOT a Communist country. It is a country of individual capitalists that are ruled by a Communist government. That is what matters.
If you've met Chinese national expats - and I've met a LOT (mostly in white collar industry and academia) - you get the sense that they are wired VERY differently than you might expect a "communist" to be. They are very smart, entrepreneurial, hard working, and don't believe in entitlement. They have a fire in their heart to work hard - and not for some collective good - but for their own personal benefit.
In other words - they are true capitalists - and the future is theirs.
Contrast that to the Western mentality. The narrative is predominately what serves the highest, collective good - not the individual. If you divide it along political lines, you take the right, which believes dignified, self-sacrificing nationalistic services to the collective is noble and commendable of respect. On the left, you have entitlement minded idealists who think the collective has to provide compassion to the needy, because individuals are incapable.
Both sides use the word "we" a lot, when they have no idea who 99% of the "we" are. Both sides believe in the power of the collective, rather than the power of the individual. Both sides are socialist.
I really like the T97, because it feels like something out of the future. Is it a perfect implementation of an assault rifle? Not by a long shot. Is it a shoddy piece of crap? Also not by a long shot.
Sure - I like my 858's, SKS's, even my AR-15's - but the thing about them is they are guns of the past, symbolic of the best (and worse) of an era that has long since passed away.
Now the thing to that is I've had (and have) Western manufactured guns that are 50 years old, 20 years old, 5 years old, and 2 years old. I've also had and have Chinese manufactured guns that are 50 years old, 20 years old, 5 years old and now, 3 months old and do you know what I see?
The Western made stuff has gotten crappier and crappier. The Chinese made stuff has gotten better and better. That is not a coincidence.
Last edited:
America isn't lacking the ability to realize/produce their products, they simple see higher margins by sourcing offshore. You think America can't manufacture nails or plastic cups? Profit margins often dictate where and who makes ones products. Blackhawk industries, Gerber, Bushnell, to name a few are all companies who've decided that increased margins with lower quality products while selling out American jobs is a good idea. All made products stateside beforehand.
Epoxy7 is right, China is far behind the rest of the industrialized world with regards to design. plagiarize/copy/reproduce anything is where they excel, self design is a failure and I think he's right as to the reason. Too much "yes sir" and not enough "wait sir, I have a better idea". The 97 has poor ergos, a ridiculous fixed sight carry handle, and non ambi controls, hardly cutting edge design. What's worse is the model they export is not the same as their service gun(pinned flash hider is yet another downside). China understands capitalism and making a profit, they haven't grasped innovation yet.
TDC
Just to further my belief that innovation wise they are significantly behind, I'd like to point out the Styre AUG has been in service since 1978.
The Tavor is the 21st century bullpup. The FS2000 is in there too. The T97 compares more to a 1978 bullpup design with the original AUG. Let's be honest I think most of us would pick the first gen AUG over the T97 if given a choice.
The Tavor is the 21st century bullpup. The FS2000 is in there too. The T97 compares more to a 1978 bullpup design with the original AUG. Let's be honest I think most of us would pick the first gen AUG over the T97 if given a choice.
Last edited:
You people aren't doing a good comparison the 95 was designed in the 90's. You should compare it with other rifles of the decade. The F2000 and the tavor came out in the 2000's. Look at the G36 like most rifles in the 90's no rails. Rails didn't become widespread till the 2000's. If you want to be fair you should compare it to other rifles from the same decade.
Western media and people tend to only report the negative stories on China. If you were honest with yourselves you'd see there is no denying China's rise. There is plenty of innovation within China, western media only report copying and plagiarism as a way of denying their decline and the turning tide. China's strong manufacturing base makes products in a wide range of value, including technologies that are necessary in everyday life. Things that are vital to infrastructure are no longer produced in the west, you would have to import them from elsewhere. One example is China's carrier killing ballistic missiles, no other country has such technology.
Just watch this video, about the largest building in the world in China.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57600070/china-opens-the-biggest-stand-alone-building-in-the-world/
Western media and people tend to only report the negative stories on China. If you were honest with yourselves you'd see there is no denying China's rise. There is plenty of innovation within China, western media only report copying and plagiarism as a way of denying their decline and the turning tide. China's strong manufacturing base makes products in a wide range of value, including technologies that are necessary in everyday life. Things that are vital to infrastructure are no longer produced in the west, you would have to import them from elsewhere. One example is China's carrier killing ballistic missiles, no other country has such technology.
Just watch this video, about the largest building in the world in China.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57600070/china-opens-the-biggest-stand-alone-building-in-the-world/
Rotary787b
Member
- Location
- Varennes, QC
I'm not really into the whole "hot brass shoved into my face" thing...
It's definitively a cool gun though.
It's definitively a cool gun though.
Charlie Brown
CGN Regular
- Location
- Campbell River
This thread went full retard.
Not until they have been out for a couple of years.
I'm not an early adopter of things, this includes firearms. I'll easily wait a few years for them to be "fixed" in whatever little glitches they may have from the factory and for the aftermarket of parts and accessories to build up.
Otherwise, i don't hunt anything that warrants a .223 caliber rifle for me and it would just be a range toy. Now, if i was living in the prairies, that would be something else... but as a city guy with a desk job...
I'm not an early adopter of things, this includes firearms. I'll easily wait a few years for them to be "fixed" in whatever little glitches they may have from the factory and for the aftermarket of parts and accessories to build up.
Otherwise, i don't hunt anything that warrants a .223 caliber rifle for me and it would just be a range toy. Now, if i was living in the prairies, that would be something else... but as a city guy with a desk job...
Don't buy their crap, that'll stop them.
lol, completely. The problem with Chinese guns, is just like their food, you want more an hour afterwards, and never feel completely satisfied. That, and there are bits that look like they don't belong, and may have started life on a cat.
I was surprised by the quality of the T97 NSR - a much better build, fit & finish than a CZ 858, IMO. The trigger pull is light & smooth, but long - puts the Tavor's & FS2000's to shame. Not knowing otherwise, if someone told me the T97 NSR was manufactured by Famae or Keltec, I wouldn't have been surprised. The mag that T97 NSR came with it was crap, but who cares.
It used to be that a lot of crap came out of China, but that was decades ago. Multinational quality control exposure has really stepped up their quality control and competitiveness. While crap does continue to be produced there, China's also attaining European/Japanese/American levels of quality standards as well. Lower cost to manufacture translates into lower cost to you, increasing your standard of living as long as you still have a job. Nowadays, what isn't made in China, LOL!
Once I get an optic on it and put a variety of ammo down the pipe, only then will I'll get an idea of how it really shoots.
It used to be that a lot of crap came out of China, but that was decades ago. Multinational quality control exposure has really stepped up their quality control and competitiveness. While crap does continue to be produced there, China's also attaining European/Japanese/American levels of quality standards as well. Lower cost to manufacture translates into lower cost to you, increasing your standard of living as long as you still have a job. Nowadays, what isn't made in China, LOL!
Once I get an optic on it and put a variety of ammo down the pipe, only then will I'll get an idea of how it really shoots.
- Location
- Durham Region
Never...
