Auto-Forward on Mag insertion: Feature? Bug?

xdmer said:
I don't think this is a real design feature on many pistols, and I really don't like the slide going into battery without me sending it there intentionally.
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I've heard this concern before, but I've yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of why it's a concern. If the goal isn't to load the firearm and continue shooting, what was the reason for inserting the loaded mag?
 
OkayShooter said:
With the Grand Power, it seems to be a design feature. It would do it 100%, with little to no effort.
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Just because the pistol consistently does something doesn't mean it's a feature. A consistent flaw/failure is still a flaw/failure.

MBJ said:
I've heard this concern before, but I've yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of why it's a concern. If the goal isn't to load the firearm and continue shooting, what was the reason for inserting the loaded mag?
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The concern is that there's zero guarantee it works 100%. The concern is that I don't want the gun to do anything without my input. The concern is that the slide lock may end up failing to work altogether. The concern is that a firearm that autoforwards does not work well with modern manual of arms.
 
You can have the slide go forward and; Not pick up a ground, or Pick up a round, AND have the mag be seated OR not. I like consistency and limiting possible failure conditions. I've had this happen to me in tactical training, and in competition, and I've also seen it a lot, resulting in dropped mags and double feeds. Different pistols (having had a couple dozen), will act differently given the mechanical features between pistol and mag, and also spring tensions and mag design.

MBJ said:
I've heard this concern before, but I've yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of why it's a concern. If the goal isn't to load the firearm and continue shooting, what was the reason for inserting the loaded mag?
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Sassybee said:
...The concern is that there's zero guarantee it works 100%. The concern is that I don't want the gun to do anything without my input. The concern is that the slide lock may end up failing to work altogether. The concern is that a firearm that autoforwards does not work well with modern manual of arms.
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I guess it was with your concerns in mind that General Dynamics & Smith & Wesson redesigned the second-generation M&P9 (the M2.0).

 
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Sassybee said:
Just because the pistol consistently does something doesn't mean it's a feature. A consistent flaw/failure is still a flaw/failure.
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Guess one way to solve this, is contact the GP distributor. And I seen this happen on STI GP6, K100, and Q100s.

But I never ever had it fail to pick up a round.
 
I, too, have never had it fail to pick up a cartridge, but the YouTuber (from post #29) described it as having happened to him.
 
Wendell said:
My M&P9 does it reliably (and it's never failed to feed properly), provided I seat the magazine with enthusiam; if you seat the magazine gently, it doesn't auto-forward at all. I like it that way.

The last match I shot (an 'outlaw' PPC match, you could say) had a weird rule. Instead of the more common LAMR command, the command to 'load' was separate from the command to 'make ready', so when they said "load", they wanted you to draw your pistol from it's holster and insert the magazine into the pistol, but nothing else; they did NOT want you to actually chamber a cartridge until the later "make ready" command. One competitor questioned the rule, protested that his pistol "auto-forwards", and asked what was he to do. (Keep in mind that noone had told anyone to have the slide to the rear, or to retract the slide, or anything like that.) His pistol "auto forwards" (he said), and he didn't know what to do.

That's what you're dealing with. That's where we are as a society.
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when he pulled the gun from the holster to sick the mag in. wouldn't the slide aready be closed?...just insert on closed slide.
 
Sassybee said:
Just because the pistol consistently does something doesn't mean it's a feature. A consistent flaw/failure is still a flaw/failure.
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I wish some people would do a bit of research and stop saying crap like this. On Grand Powers it is most definitely a design feature and it is marketed as such for competition shooters. They designed it to make it happen every time, and much easier than other modern handguns.

For guns like the M&P and CZs, sure, it’s not exactly designed to do that. Call it a flaw/failure if you want, I disagree that it’s either, in my opinion it’s just something that happens sometimes. But there is a difference between it happening on M&Ps and CZs, and Grand Powers.
 
scott said:
when he pulled the gun from the holster to sick the mag in. wouldn't the slide aready be closed?...just insert on closed slide.
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Exactly. That's why I ended the story with "...That's what you're dealing with. That's where we are as a society."
 
Wendell said:
Exactly. That's why I ended the story with "...That's what you're dealing with. That's where we are as a society."
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You're just looking for the attention. There is more to the story and a reason, he asked. You're not telling it. You're trying to making him look stupid. Well how about you haven't really improved, every year? So what is your excuse?

Because I was looking at pre registration email from 2018, for the PPC 1500 match. You made a big deal here about the range commands. Well it was the same, last 3 years. So why only now you have an issue?

Words of command:
After your relay is called to the firing line, the range commands you will hear are provided
below:
 You are in your 1 Minute preparation period - Withdraw your handgun from your
holster. At this time, you may align with the target, establish good position, then replace
gun in holster.
 Draw your pistols* – Redraw your gun
 With a magazine of 6 rounds load - and insert 6 round magazine (or rounds into the
cylinder for a revolver).
 Make Ready - Rack slide or close cylinder. (Note change.) Adopt the appropriate alert
position. For standing, the gun is at a 45 degree angle to the ground, finger outside the
trigger guard. For barricade, sitting, kneeling and prone positions, you may have the gun
aimed at the target, fingers outside the trigger guard.
 Look out Look Out - watch and shoot, watch and shoot. (approximately 3 second
pause.)
 2 second whistle blast – signal to fire
 2 x 2 second whistle blasts – signal to cease fire.
 Unload – make safe prepare for inspection. RSO will clear every gun. Remove mag or
empty cylinder. Pistols will be dry fired at your target. Holster guns.
 Range is safe. Pick up brass**, mags, speed loaders and go forward to score and patch
targets.
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"The concern is that there's zero guarantee it works 100%. The concern is that I don't want the gun to do anything without my input. The concern is that the slide lock may end up failing to work altogether. The concern is that a firearm that autoforwards does not work well with modern manual of arms."

This sums it up for me. If a gun has a feature, it has to work every time. If a gun is designed a certain way, it has to work that way every time.

It wasn't a feature on an MP pistol I own, but it became a feature when the gun was hot and dirty. Any feature or effect that is transient and unscheduled becomes a performance hazard, and more important than that a safety hazard. Auto-forwarding isn't how we are taught, and isn't how we are trained, therefore it is an undesirable feature on the firearms we are using, even more so if one is either relying on the action, or unprepared for the action to take place. If I want my gun to be loaded, than I want to be the one loading it. Inserting a magazine isn't a guarantee that I want to forward the slide or chamber a round, and requiring the closing of the slide first is a step that is both unnecessary and contrary to years of training and practice which I may be prone to forget or fumble.

I'm not at all saying there isn't a value to it as a design feature, maybe it is, maybe it is not.

Airbags are a great safety feature..but they seen less so when they go off unexpectedly..
 
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.30/06 FTW said:
I wish some people would do a bit of research and stop saying crap like this. On Grand Powers it is most definitely a design feature and it is marketed as such for competition shooters. They designed it to make it happen every time, and much easier than other modern handguns.

For guns like the M&P and CZs, sure, it’s not exactly designed to do that. Call it a flaw/failure if you want, I disagree that it’s either, in my opinion it’s just something that happens sometimes. But there is a difference between it happening on M&Ps and CZs, and Grand Powers.
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I'm sorry, I'm referring to quality built service pistols, not budget gamer guns. You think it's a feature great, still doesn't make it right. Smith and Wesson specifically changed the m&p 2.0 to prevent it from happening. Something that "sometimes happens" is not a feature, it's a flaw.
 
OkayShooter said:
You're just looking for the attention. There is more to the story and a reason, he asked. You're not telling it. You're trying to making him look stupid. Well how about you haven't really improved, every year? So what is your excuse?

Because I was looking at pre registration email from 2018, for the PPC 1500 match. You made a big deal here about the range commands. Well it was the same, last 3 years. So why only now you have an issue?
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I didn't identify the match or the shooter; in fact, I didn't even know the guy (who said it). Why would I try to make you look stupid? I don't even know you (nor do I care to).
 
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I've only shot a few million rounds through a variety of modern semi autos, all of which auto forwarded when the mag was inserted with force, never once had a failure to pick up a round doing so, not once. Nor have I ever seen a failure of that type in 20 years of competition shooting, with a large variety of firearms. If the slide doesn't go forward you either hit the release or manually rack and release. This isn't rocket surgery.
 
Sassybee said:
I'm sorry, I'm referring to quality built service pistols, not budget gamer guns. You think it's a feature great, still doesn't make it right. Smith and Wesson specifically changed the m&p 2.0 to prevent it from happening. Something that "sometimes happens" is not a feature, it's a flaw.
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What are you referring to as, budget gamer guns? I wouldn't really refer to a M&P as Quality. Considering they are the spawn of the S&W Sigma and SD9 ( Sub 350$ guns )
 
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