B.C. mulls return of grizzly hunting in controversial report
- Thread starter Thomas D'Arcy McGee
- Start date
Areas under decline are by definition under carrying capacity, you're obsfuscating. Inbreeding depression is far from the only cause of population decline
Cite your "reference" if you want people to read it (I'll eat my hat if you read it in full...)
Cite your "reference" if you want people to read it (I'll eat my hat if you read it in full...)
I didn't say "inbreeding is the only cause"
but it is A cause
https://www.researchgate.net/public...nting_in_southwestern_British_Columbia_Canada
but it is A cause
https://www.researchgate.net/public...nting_in_southwestern_British_Columbia_Canada
Still on my head
Traditionally I have gotten paid to critique undergrads work...
Paper also suggests stochastic events like the shooting of a single bear mistaken for a black bear have very deleterious effects on small populations; directly contradicting your " argument"
Traditionally I have gotten paid to critique undergrads work...
Paper also suggests stochastic events like the shooting of a single bear mistaken for a black bear have very deleterious effects on small populations; directly contradicting your " argument"
hahaha
as an evolutionary biologist you should know know that long-living dominant males in an areas where females don't move out of creates inbreeding.
let's not take this any further
we can indeed
and I also agree that there are many other factors that drive population decline
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I’ve worked extensively in recent years in the Nahatlatch and cascades, both those areas are incredibly close to major population centres and heavily torn up by resource extraction and habitat destruction. Inbreeding would be the last concern I have for those bears. But I can tell you with certainty, shooting some of the few left would not help them.
Words from an actual biologist, which I’m not.
Words from an actual biologist, which I’m not.
I love a good pissing match, and I'm going to guess we have both sat in on a few ecology seminars in our day.
All in good fun.
And once again, definitely not a grizzly bear expert (or an evolutionary biologist for that matter)
Nice of you to write a summary of the papers conclusion for us ardent
All in good fun.
And once again, definitely not a grizzly bear expert (or an evolutionary biologist for that matter)
Nice of you to write a summary of the papers conclusion for us ardent
of course shooting a bear won't help said bear survive (duh
)on the other hand, inbreeding takes a long time to work its way though the small population
still some specimens (like king charles) made it while keeping human shape
oh, wait, that's not a bear
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The book that quote comes from involves long term study of the Gobi brown bears. There’s around 30 left in a the Gobi, which is larger than BC. They are not showing indications of suffering from inbreeding though it certainly is a risk. I find it unlikely that’s the Nahatlatch or Cascade bears’ problem when viewed with that in mind, ignoring what I’ve seen is happening to their habitat.
Conor is right on this, the issue is habitat. And keep contiguous habitat intact, and you can typically hunt the inhabiting species sustainably. Fail to maintain habitat and they go the way of all the lower 48 grizzlies in all except 4 states. All but one of which borders less developed Canada. The one that doesn’t is Wyoming, the least densely populated lower 48 state.
There are some clear takeaways, none involve inbreeding that shooting bears solves unfortunately. Preserve habitat from resource extraction, and you have wildlife, and hunting. Figuring shooting them is the main answer or the first point of conservation arguments, or even is in the top ten, is very misguided. I’ve engaged in a lot of hunting, and found over the years the arguments I used to supported which I bought into fully in the past, are flawed.
Conor is right on this, the issue is habitat. And keep contiguous habitat intact, and you can typically hunt the inhabiting species sustainably. Fail to maintain habitat and they go the way of all the lower 48 grizzlies in all except 4 states. All but one of which borders less developed Canada. The one that doesn’t is Wyoming, the least densely populated lower 48 state.
There are some clear takeaways, none involve inbreeding that shooting bears solves unfortunately. Preserve habitat from resource extraction, and you have wildlife, and hunting. Figuring shooting them is the main answer or the first point of conservation arguments, or even is in the top ten, is very misguided. I’ve engaged in a lot of hunting, and found over the years the arguments I used to supported which I bought into fully in the past, are flawed.
"Trophy Hunting" has a negative genetic impact, but shooting problem bears won't cause a learned or genetic behaviour change to avoid people. Because they are an "Apex Predator" with thousands of years of evolution, so are wolves and look what has been done to them... Chihuahua, Dachshund, Grey Hound, Blood Hound, etc etc.
Interesting circle you guys are trying to square.
Interesting circle you guys are trying to square.
Bears have famously been domesticated for over 10k years. The dog/wolf point (rich to call it that) is contrasting thousands of years of selective breeding with what, 6? Of grizzly hunting being banned, eliminating a single selective pressure on a population of WILD animals.
Do problem bears return as ghosts to warn others to stay away from humans? Problem bears are often young males who are dispersing from their mothers over a greater distance than females, another case where a lack of habitat is literally killing bears
If a population is so small and isolated that it is undergoing inbreeding depression shooting breeding bears isn't going to be much help. Dealing with the root cause of the isolation sure would though.
I'd agree that it is super unlikely a population of 30 bears is heterozygous. The paper that got me all riled up even uses the Mongolian population as an example of a homogenous population of brown bears
If a population is large and has enough habitat for younger males to spread to other areas I can't see human selective pressure, be it hunting or dlp shootings, being anything better than net neutral.
I say if any population is healthy enough to sustain a hunt light em up. Don't pretend you're doing them a favour though. The only instance of hunting for successful males being "good" for a population I can fathom is overpopulation
We manage wildlife as a resource, if the resource is ample we can draw from it with no consequence
The strategy of natal dispersal is the evolutionary response to inbreeding depression, if there's nowhere to disperse to...
Do problem bears return as ghosts to warn others to stay away from humans? Problem bears are often young males who are dispersing from their mothers over a greater distance than females, another case where a lack of habitat is literally killing bears
If a population is so small and isolated that it is undergoing inbreeding depression shooting breeding bears isn't going to be much help. Dealing with the root cause of the isolation sure would though.
I'd agree that it is super unlikely a population of 30 bears is heterozygous. The paper that got me all riled up even uses the Mongolian population as an example of a homogenous population of brown bears
If a population is large and has enough habitat for younger males to spread to other areas I can't see human selective pressure, be it hunting or dlp shootings, being anything better than net neutral.
I say if any population is healthy enough to sustain a hunt light em up. Don't pretend you're doing them a favour though. The only instance of hunting for successful males being "good" for a population I can fathom is overpopulation
We manage wildlife as a resource, if the resource is ample we can draw from it with no consequence
The strategy of natal dispersal is the evolutionary response to inbreeding depression, if there's nowhere to disperse to...
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