How dare you back up your claims with pictures. This is unacceptable! also LOL at the part about "flex" because of a stamped receiver causing POI shift..come on man you said you owned a SA, so considering that you owned one your either being silly or biased because you dint like the rifle. Ridiculous claim though.
Bad News for Swiss Arms
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Kampfhamster
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Switzerland
One more interesting fact: SAN is owned by the same holding that also owns the companies Blaser, Sauer, Mauser, SIGSauer USA. Look at what they produce and sell and think about it for a second.
Looks like they are not at all interested in keeping them running.
Looks like they are not at all interested in keeping them running.
Some stamped receiver guns don't cost very much and some do. The actual construction of stamped parts varies considerably in cost and quality. SAN like HK makes very high quality parts. Receiver rails are welded and brazed. You will never see a SAN receiver break. The quality of the steel is exceptional too. I would argue that if SAN dropped its standards the guns could be built much more cheaply. Most of us arm chair commandos don't need the guns built as tough as they are.
- Location
- Leduc County, Alberta
Haha!
Just like it used to be!!!
I miss the good 'ol days when every country, besides members of the Commonwealth and the USA, had military arms with rollmarks stamped into them that said:
"Loewe, Berlin"
"Mauser Werke A.G., Oberndorf-am-Neckar"
"Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken"
or
"Fabrique Nationale d'armes de guerre"
You've obviously never spent much time with one. Just from the weight of the rifle on the bipod I would get a 5 inch shift in POI compared with supporting it on the mag or on a bag just in front of the magwell.
Nothing ridiculous about that "observation". Read through the SAN sticky, I'm not the only one.
Biggest problem with the SA seems to be the fan boys that just can't accept that it isn't the perfect rifle with no flaws and make excuses for why it doesn't shoot as well as other rifles out there. I liked mine but it didn't live up to my expectations for accuracy (which I got from all the hype on this site) and the excessive POI shift depending how you held it.
AJ996, saying that just because it isn't free floated it is normal is a load of S**T, I have an AR that isn't free floated and it doesn't matter how I hold or support it I don't get a huge shift in POI. Maybe there is a small shift but not 5 inches at 100yds, more like less than an inch at 100yds.
The rifle was very nicely built and the action is super smooth. The internals are very overbuilt and I can't imagine it breaking parts or wearing out but it just wasn't for me. I now have an ACR, an HK SL8-4, and a couple AR's that all shoot as well or better than the SA and none of them care how I hold them.
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Cr5, what barrel profile is on your AR? Because that will matter.
I have owned a few AR's and have been shooting the C7 in service for a long time. Any govt profile 20" barrel will be affected by handguard and barrel pressure. If we are talking about H-Bar's the effect will be less.
I dont know how you were loading that rifle but If you could not shoot your rifle accurately don't blame the equipment. Before your rifle left the factory it had to group 10 rounds at 300m or it does not go to market.
Bipod use has been covered enough regarding these rifles, only the 300m target community uses it and they load it the exact same every time at a range, I have shot in Switzerland. The military guys do not use that bipod to shoot for the same reason I don't clip a bipod to the front of a C7, my accuracy will go to sh!t
As for the receiver flex comment regarding stamped receivers, Heckler & Koch made the G3, HK33, MP5 and others the same way, the receivers do not flex and are very solid.
I have owned a few AR's and have been shooting the C7 in service for a long time. Any govt profile 20" barrel will be affected by handguard and barrel pressure. If we are talking about H-Bar's the effect will be less.
I dont know how you were loading that rifle but If you could not shoot your rifle accurately don't blame the equipment. Before your rifle left the factory it had to group 10 rounds at 300m or it does not go to market.
Bipod use has been covered enough regarding these rifles, only the 300m target community uses it and they load it the exact same every time at a range, I have shot in Switzerland. The military guys do not use that bipod to shoot for the same reason I don't clip a bipod to the front of a C7, my accuracy will go to sh!t
As for the receiver flex comment regarding stamped receivers, Heckler & Koch made the G3, HK33, MP5 and others the same way, the receivers do not flex and are very solid.
I could have accepted a 1 inch shift when changing support positions but 5 inches is rediculous. The rifle would shoot around 4 inches at 100yds with the ammo I was using and I'm sure it could have done better if I tried a bunch of different types but I got too frustrated with the poi shifting every time I changed how it was supported.
I do blame the equipment, I could shoot it but got sick of having to hold it exactly the same every time just to be able to hit what I wanted. I bought it to use in the fields and woods for varmints and predator hunting where I didn't have the luxury of shooting off a bench and supporting it exactly the same every time.
It's fine if you like it but it's just not what I needed. I feel the same about the Tavor, nice rifle but just doesn't do it for me.
Jesus man, 4 inches at 100 yards is terrible and should not happen ever, regardless of ammunition or how you hold the handguard. The sticker target in my picture is a 3" shoot-n-c. I can shoot targets like that one repeatedly. Did you buy that rifle new or used?
I have never seen or heard of one grouping that poorly. How was the bore? Any crown damage? If mine did that it would be off to the gunsmith. I think down the road you should give these another try. You are in Alberta right? Drop by the Cowtown Shooting center and fire a SAN carbine and you'll see how these rifles are supposed to shoot. If you are ever on Van Isle, pm me and I'll let you shoot my rifle.
Now I definitely think you rifle was either buggered or the optic mount/scope was loose. You would have to ram a coat hanger down the bore to make it group that sh!tty if it was in sound working condition.
Like I said they are a most excellent rifle! But today they could also have a CNC machined upper and lower for the same price and durability and SAN would still be making a hefty penny in profit. You guys are attached to these rifles for various reasons and there's no denying they made you a few bucks over the years...not millions or even hundreds of thousands of dollars but you still made some good money selling them so you can't exactly come out admit they are over-priced because it would be like shooting yourself in the foot! Aprox. 1200 rifles over all the years it has been available suggests the price tag is way too high for the Canadian market. It would actually be very interesting to see what would happen to the MSRP of the SAN rifles if the ARs where reclassified as NR tomorrow...then again maybe the prices of the ARs would go up instead.
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It was a newer target model (flat top) with a PEPR mount and a new scope which was fine when I switched it to a different rifle and later I had my Elcan Specter DR on it. Rifle had approx 500 rounds through it. I think it just didn't like the American Eagle 55gr. I really don't care, it was the POI shift that pushed me away from it and was why I sold it. Like I said, I'm sure it could have done better with a little experimentation to find a type of ammo it liked better but having to hold it just right every time was a pain in the a$$ and made me realize there are better rifles for me. My HK is an awesome shooter but it has been replaced by my non restricted ACR with chromolly match grade barrel. I haven't done much experimenting with the ACR yet but it is almost as accurate as the HK and I also have a 6.8SPC barrel for it and am working on getting a 300BLK barrel made for it as well. The SA was a good rifle but not good for me. I won't own one again and have no interest in giving them another try.
I post in these threads about them to give a little perspective to people considering purchasing them. The fan boys never point out the negatives of the SA platform and if I had known more about them I probably wouldn't have bought one in the first place. I'm glad I did own one though so I could experience the rifle first hand and see for myself. It was a nice rifle but I think there are better options out there these days.
VLT79,
Keep in mind that there are plenty of the restricted carbine versions out there so I don't think the "if the AR was non restricted" argument works as well for this rifle. I still agree that they aren't worth over $3000 though and for that amount of money someone can buy a non restricted ACR, or any of the other non restricted platforms available which are all well built and just as accurate.
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Fair enough but my problem with your perspective in most SAN treads is that it comes across very negatively in the accuracy department which is simply not true. For whatever reason by your account the rifle you had was performing like a shotgun and that is pretty far from the norm.
These rifles are all test fired at the factory and must achieve the accuracy standard posted by beltfed which is something not every firearms manufacturer does. They also have a reputation for accuracy worldwide and of thousands of these in service and in private hands around the world I have yet to read an account of "my Swiss arms sprays 4" groups at 100 yards" besides yours.
I have taught people who have never shot a rifle in their life to shoot, some with a SAN and they all manage to shoot good groups by the end of the day. If you want to continue posting that SAN's are inaccurate go ahead but all you are doing is informing people that your rifle was f**ked, most likely it was the bore or the barrel trunnion and it should have been sent in.
As for the fan boy comment, I shoot and have shot lots of rifles and if anything i am an HK fanboy, specifically of the HK33 and G3. But those are gone so now its nice AR's and SAN for me. Both shoot equally well.
Duh! When you sell your industries to foreign companies who are in competition with them what do they do?
They shut you down and drive the business to their home manufacturers.
The Germans are particularly good at this. Of course they're also good at producing quality products so those countries without any collective vision who would rather make their money spinning junk bonds are screwed both ways!
"Economics is war by other means", Otto von Bismarck.
They shut you down and drive the business to their home manufacturers.
The Germans are particularly good at this. Of course they're also good at producing quality products so those countries without any collective vision who would rather make their money spinning junk bonds are screwed both ways!
"Economics is war by other means", Otto von Bismarck.
No, you couldn't unless you made it significantly heavier. The manufacturing process chosen was chosen for a reason.
I never suggested the rifles were good value, only that they are far more durable and better built than many people suggest.
canucklehead
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
As far as I know, FAMAE only currently makes the 540 series, not the 55X...
After RCMP would see the pricing, they may not bother .... LOL
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