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- Prince Albert, Sk
Might up the price but worth a look.
Barnes TSX and TTSX questions
- Thread starter icehunter121
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Might up the price but worth a look.
I was thinking tumbling on impact, not tumbling before it hit the animal. If it tumbled on impact rather than expanded, I'd call THAT a failure on the bullets part. If its tumbling before it even gets there, well, thats on the guy behind the trigger, as you should see signs of tumbling when at the range sighting in.
Wound channel would indicate tumble, it didn't.
After these failures I searched for answers. There was once a Barnes blog(gone now) that showed many such failures.. Barnes themselves thought they fixed it by putting a plastic tip on it saying failures were due to the hallow tip filling up hindering expansion.. That may have been part of the issue but not entirely because there are still failures being reported.. Not sure if it is a copper density in different batches produced or what but the problem is still there..
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Gun writer John Barness who regularly posts on 24hr campfire has posted before on a Barnes thread. He has shot, witness shot, been part of hunting parties all over the world where thousands of animals were shots and he said he’s only seen a handful of of TSX failures. If I recall correctly, they were all with smaller calibers (under .270 I think?) and all were X and TSX versions. Had never seen a TTSX fail. A single person who’s experiencing a 30% failure rate is a bit strange. I’ll see if I can dig up that post.
I have no skin in the game and don't hate Barnes, still load them in 30-30 and 30Rem and have a bunch of discontinued for my 401WSL.. In a google search you can find plenty of examples of failure to expand reported, make you wonder how many are not.. How many missed shots aren't missed shots?
Sure, we all want magazine ad perfect expansion with 4 petals pulled back. But it would be interesting to know the reaction of the deer and what the internal damage looked like.
If you have a TSX / TTSX that tumbles you are driving it too slow or your barrel twist is too slow or both.
As mentioned there are several of us here who have shot dozens animals in a variety of chamberings who have never had a failure with the triple shocks. I know Mark and Clarke have both put tons of meat in the freezer with these bullets.
As mentioned there are several of us here who have shot dozens animals in a variety of chamberings who have never had a failure with the triple shocks. I know Mark and Clarke have both put tons of meat in the freezer with these bullets.
Just my 2 cents on this topic, I have been loading and shooting Barnes since about 96. Between the guys I load for and myself a conservative guess is approx 4 dozen deer, moose or elk. All one shot kills, tracking jobs averaged about 50 yards. 90 percent of the deer dropped right there.
This is what I know for fact, not heard or read on the internet, just fact I witnessed.
I also shoot Accubonds and Partitions both good bullets.
This is what I know for fact, not heard or read on the internet, just fact I witnessed.
I also shoot Accubonds and Partitions both good bullets.
Ask him about the records he kept on some African cull hunts to document distance travelled by game with various bullets. He will tell you that Bergers are the fastest killing bullets he’s ever used, and that the monos were all basically tied for the longest blood trails of the bunch. Everything in between was; not surprisingly, somewhere in between. One comment that I particularily liked was that people who thought a TSX made a big wound channel had never used a Berger. He’s an unabashed Partition guy, and not shy to say that some decidedly ordinary cup and core factory loads are a heck of a lot better than its fashionable to say.
Interesting. I know that people have had expansion failures from Barnes and I've seen pics of the bullets. Although often the indications are that they tumbled on impact. I haven't had a failure yet so I still use them, among other bullets.
I've had Ballistic Tips fail (over expansion at high velocity impact) and I had Nosler Partitions "fail" in that they got stopped by a big bears spine, tumbled and lost their rear core. Broke the vertebrae after going through hide and back fat, but didn't go any deeper. I've also seen Barnes bullets leave small entrance and exit wounds but the internal organs looked like jellied tomato soup
Bullets can do weird things. Ultimately, people should just pick the bullet that gives them confidence.
You may be inclined to look at Accubonds or Swift Scirocco's , I feel those may give you the balance of what you are looking for.A lot less lead in the the Swift offerings also and I lean towards using the Swift line.I believe the A Frame is bonded to the jacket as well.
Partition vs A Frame...
Accubonds vs Scirooco...
I know this comment was from the first page, but I'll be dammed, your post singlehandedly made me a fan of Swift!!
I need to get my hands on some of those and try them out!
UPDATE:
I read the rest of the thread and figured I'd weigh in.
I have not had the opportunity to test them first hand on big game as of yet. I do however handhold TTSXs right alongside Accubonds. I'll load both and see which one gives me the best accuracy and go with that. I feel safe enough with both to get the job done.
The one where I do lean a bit is the TSX-FN for the 45-70. I haven't seen it in action on a moose, but I really want it work and get good penetration. I've heard horror stories about the Hornady FTX on animals bigger the deer, so the idea of better penetration gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. I think as long as you limited your shooting ranges you'd have a slick setup. Good gun for pushing the bush.
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I actually ran into that post while digging on the Campfire.
“ Just recrunched my hunting notes from the past 20-some years of using Barnes X's and similar bullets, such as the Fail Safe, Hornady GMX and Nosler E-Tip. I included the other bullets because they have always seemed to work about the same, and crunching the numbers bears that out, but also separated the Tipped TSX's, and the E-Tips and GMX's. The animals weren't shot by just me, but were killed by hunting companions. Around 40% were taken by me and my wife.
I didn't include any animals that were hit through the spine, just animals hit through the ribs with typical heart-lung shots. The distance they went before falling was paced off to the best of our abilities.
Here are the results:
Total: 164 bullets (57% Barnes)
17 Cartridges:.22-250, .240 Weatherby, .257 Roberts, .257 AI, .25-06, .257 Wby., 6.5x55, .270 Win., .270 WSM, 7x57, 7mm Rem. Mag, .308 Win., .30-06, .300 Win. Mag, .338 Win. Mag and two wildcats, .338 WSM and 9.3 BS
17 species: whitetail, mule, fallow and axis deer; pronghorn, elk, moose, feral pigs, nilgai, hartebeest, gemsbok, blue wildebeest, zebra, springbok, Cape buffalo, blesbok and warthog
Average distance lung-shot animals went after shot:
Barnes X�s overall: 47.0 yards
TTSX only: 40.7
Fail Safe, E-Tip, GMX: 55.7
E-Tip, GMX only: 44.0 yards
The "tipped" bullets do seem to kill quicker than the hollow-point bullets, whether the original X or Fail Safes, but my notes on other bullets show lung-shot animals falling quicker, on average. The quickest-killing bullet among my notes is the Berger VLD, which so far has averaged 18 yards with heart-lung shots.
If I have time soon, may break out the numbers on deer-sized game from the rest.
My experience is bullets that fragment more do kill quicker when placed further back in the lungs. In fact when using Berger VLD's I normally aim a little further from the shoulder, say a hand's width, on deer-sized game, because they do so much more damage to the vital organs.
The last animal I shot with them is a good example, a pronghorn buck that was angling a little toward me at 162 yards. I put the 140 6.5 that hand's width behind the shoulder, and it exited the rear of the ribs on the far side. The buck went 10 paces. I've seen a few deer-sized animals lung-shot with VLD's go farther, but 25 yards is normally about the limit.”
Here is one of the Swift Sirocco bullets we have recovered. It is a 100 grain 25 calibre launched out of a 25 WSSM @ 3300 fps. Impact velocity was not much less than that so it was quite the torture test for the little bullet.
My daughter shot this mule deer about 8 years ago from under 100 feet. It was quartering away and she hit it on the back rib and the bullet was recovered under the skin on the opposite shoulder. (You can see the "lump" under the hide on the shoulder)
It weighed 80 grains exactly the 80% weight retention Swift designed the bullet for.
