Basic Black - My new F Class trainer

dizzy said:
Mystic, try some Eley Match, in my rifle sport grouped better at 50 yards, but Match at 100, NO IDEA how to explain that one other than the Match eley is great at 100 yards. under an inch consistently, for kicks next time your out set up a target at 50 yards, and fire 10 rounds of each at it and see if the groupings are consistent with the 100 yard groupings.
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The goal is to have a practise rig for 100 and 200yds shooting. I know that most of the ammo I have shot will do very well the closer I get. The vertical flyers will seem to disappear at close range.

It was interesting to see show most of the ammo in their price range shot about the same. Will shoot a few more groups to decide.

Jerry
 
shredder said:
Jerry, why such a big scope on that rifle? I shoot close to MOA with a CIL 310, match Eley ammo (available at Bass Pro) and a 4x scope at 100 yards.

Isn't that scope kind of overkill??

Not bashing you in any way, I'm just kind of a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it, 'cause you're likely to phuck it up" kinda guy.
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Not a problem. I am using such a high mag scope as I already had it from F class. It is a bit much as the actual scale mag would be around 24X but I didn't feel like buying another scope for this rimfire.

Higher mag allows me to compensate for variations in wind conditions and drop them into the mechanical accuracy of this set up regardless of what the wind is doing.

you can aim easily with any mag scope but to make precise small adjustments under varying conditions, you need a to be able to see much better.

Jerry
 
kombayotch said:
Knock it back to 200 and re-evaluate.
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Of course, but first I want to see some consistency at 100yds. 5/8" to 1" seems like a pretty big spread. And the 'outs' tend to be vertical. If these are here at 100yds, they will be massive at 200yds.

If that is what it is so be it. If it has something to do with my shooting or missed conditions, then even better.

Be great to find an ammo that will shoot 1/2" to 5/8" consistently. This would be X ring mechanical accuracy which is exactly the level I want. If the tendency is to toss shots now and then, I will never really know if it is me, winds or ammo.

Have you found any difference with what ammo works well from winter to summer?

I am testing near or around freezing. I would hate to buy a case of this only to find it isn't the load when things warm up.

Any thought?

Jerry
 
Those vertical flyers do get amplified a lot at 200 yards. Usually, only the ammo that is completely free of vertical at 100 yards shoots well at 200 yards. Honestly, I've found 100 yard testing is a waste of time when when you're comparing a lot of different loads. Fire 10 shots at 200 yards and if you see vertical, then onto the next ammo. If there aren't any flyers, do two groups of 20. That will weed out the good ammo from the bad quickly. Trust me, you'll know if its you or the ammo. The vertical flyers are very prominent compared to the wind if you're watching the flags for large changes.

I haven't noticed any bad effects going from cold to hot, but I've seen a lot going the other way. Primer ignition becomes a problem with some ammo when it gets cold out if your hammer is weak.

Also, when the temperature is at where the speed of sound drop to a point where half of your rounds are going transonic and half aren't, groups go to crap with a lot of ammo.

Guys who do biathlon shooting can give you a lot of good insight into which ammo stays consistent over temperature.
 
Thanks for giving some insight on temp on rimfire ammo. So far ALL the ammo I have tested has fired without fuss. I have not shot over a chronie as I expected flyers to be real obvious on paper at 100yds.

Did more shooting today. Somewhere north of freezing.

Started with Lapua Std Plus. Some very tight shots but a few outs. Not much but outs never the less.

An out is a shot that goes in a direction definitely not expected. Like high when you feel the shot was pulled low and into the wind, etc.

Then I went to Rifle Match and again got a couple of very tight groups. Also, the shots went where I was expecting. Lot of shots clustering, touching. First group was 1/2", second 5/8". Very very nice.

Tried RWS and Eley and similar groups as last time. The core of the ammo shot well but there was always outs going both windage and vertical.

Stuff could be ideal in another rifle but in mine, Lapua seems to be the choice.

I am shooting as pictured off a bipod. Today went 45mins straight as I had to get home for family stuff. I went back to Lapua RM for the last batch of groups and had a nice lesson in fatigue and how fussy bipod shooting with a rimfire can be.

The first shot going back to Lapua was off but still within 1" from the other 4 shots. Those 4 shots went into a cluster that was 1/2" with 3 into one hole. WOW.

But I was starting to feel fatigue and cold.

Next group started well, then ooops, poor form and that was way off up. The next 3 shots cut into a 5/8" tear.

The next 3 groups reinforced that if the form wasn't bang on, the shot went out and out by a significant amount.

Now I was careful with all the other groups while testing the other ammo and since their performance repeated time again, I know it was the ammo not agreeing with the rifle.

But with RM, the shots were awfully close to touching with the average now around 5/8". Lots of shots would cut or even go into the same hole. Not sure what more you can ask from an ammo in a rimfire at 100yds.

Good form, little vertical. Too much, too little and the shot would gravitate high or low. Twitch and off it goes.

Fantastic. Adds a great test of form and consistency.

Will test 200yds next but don't expect any surprises. Groups at 100yds will not get any better at 200yds.

Jerry
 
Got some warmer weather and some calm air so off to 200yds I went. Guessing temp around +3C.

Winds were indeed very light to none. No flags.

A number of ammo shot great with the bulk of the shots inside MOA BUT it was the outs that increased groups quite alot.

SK Std plus was first and shot so so. Tested later in the day and it was doing really well. Of the 15 shot group, 11 were in a cluster 1.5" X 1" BUT the other 4 brought the group size to 3 1/2". Both high and low.

RWS Target Rifle gave a pretty even spread with 13 shots 2"X2" but the other 2 opened to 4". Again, high and low.

RWS Rifle Match was shooting really really well with a number of shots in a 1" X 1 1/2" cluster. 14 shots in a 3 1/2" group. Shot 15 was WAY off landing 6" low. Sounded funny too so likely not enough powder.

Eley Sport didn't do so well with alot of vertical.

SK Rifle Match did a couple of 5 rds groups and these were not bad. The first was 2 1/2". Second was 2" - yippee.

Then did a 15 shot group. 12 went into a 1 1/2" X 1 3/4" cluster. Add in the other 3 and you have a 2 1/2" group. However, I think there was a bit of wind during this group as the spreads were mostly horizontal.

End of the day, I took another 5rds. after shooting all the RWS and Eley test groups. First shot was low, next 4 went 1". Add in the first and it was 1 1/2".

Close enough and reconfirms my results at 100yds.

Now to go stock up some ammo.

Jerry
 
Sounds like fun, shooting 22 at 200 yards!

Can't wait to get that cheek peice from ya, should look just like yours!

I'll definatley be shooting my 17 HMR ar 200 yards once shes all sighted in.

What hieght/kind of rings do you have on there?

Ryan
 
I may have missed this somewhere along the way, but what are you using to shoot these? Is this from a bipod, front rest, etc?
 
heiko, see post #1.

IMG_3276.jpg


A couple of 100yd 5 rds groups with SK RM

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15 shot group with SK Std+ at 200yds. If not for the way high and lows, this stuff is better then the SK RM. But you have to count all your shots.

IMG_3273.jpg


Here is the 200yds 15 shot cluster with SK RM - Wished I had some flags but the vast majority of shots are in a nice flat band. Even with the highs and lows, still awfully close to MOA.

IMG_3275.jpg


Here is the final group with SK RM shot at 200yds. The first was low, then the next 4 landed in a nice 1" group. I had been shooting all the RWS and Eley targets before this group.

I am quite surprised at how little fouling is needed between ammo types. Maybe it is the new wax? I used to have to shoot 5 to 10 rds when changing between ammos in previous rifles.

This Savage makes me happier and happier each time I use it.

kombayotch, I have put an adj cheek rest and bedded this Savage but otherwise box stock. Would this still be a factory bolt action per your LR shooting rules?

Jerry
 
I notice a phenomena with my 22's where the first group of the day is the worst and I attribute it to something happening with the barrel warming up or getting conditioned and not the shooter. Maybe its all in my head.
 
The cheek rest would be fine, but bedding puts you into custom class.

The Rifle Match results are solid. You may get groups smaller under dead calm conditions, but 20 round groups will be around that size (~2-2.5") with great ammo, under match conditions. I would say get more of the same lot of it. The SK stuff can be hit-and-miss from lot-to-lot.
 
Grizzlypeg said:
I notice a phenomena with my 22's where the first group of the day is the worst and I attribute it to something happening with the barrel warming up or getting conditioned and not the shooter. Maybe its all in my head.
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I have definitely seen this especially in the colder temps. So no, you are not going nuts.

I am sure it has something to do with the barrel steel warming up but also us getting used to shooting dressed like a penguin :D

Every now and then, I get a combo that just really doesn't care what the weather is doing and just puts them on target cold bore.

That is too bad about the bedding as this is the best improvement for any factory rifle. This Savage didn't really need it as it was held nicely in the plastic stock (surprised indeed).

In all factory classes that I have shot in, trigger work and bedding are considered ok as you are just solving some of the QC issues from the factory. And improve the performance level.

But these are rules for your local matches so no biggie.

Yes, I have been very happy with how this SK ammo has shot. I just booked a case of ammo from HIRSCH with the same lot number. So in a week or so, I will be set to go LR practising.

Have you seen the new 300m and 500m ICFRA targets?

The 300m V is just a bit smaller then the 10 ring you are using.

The 500m V is just a bit bigger then the 10 ring you are using.

With the group sizes very similar to my F class rigs, and likely the wind drift, I am going to really enjoy using this Savage as a practise rifle.

Thanks for the inspiration and help.

Jerry
 
The rules are in flux, so that can change... I would like it to be close to stuff like F-class, but I'm trying to keep the playing field fair. I don't think its fair for an Anschutz Target rifle to compete against CZs and Savages... There are similar situations they allow that I would drop the hammer on too in centerfire, if I were running the match. Bedding, I could allow...

Haven't seen the new targets, but if they're black, that wouldn't work. The targets where chosen to make it easier to see the hits. Most local ranges don't have manned butts with target markers. I've been talking to Maple Leaf targets about getting some of the archery targets without the red and blue in them as its hard to see the hits even on those colors at 200 and 300, depending on the conditions and quality of people's optics.
 
PM me your address and I will send you some targets that I use.

Fax would work too.

If I knew how to scan, I would but..... printer doesn't like me

What I have done is make the scoring target face white with a black scoring line. Reverse of what we shoot at in F class.

You have no problem seeing the bullet holes impact. With a quality high mag scope, you don't even need a spotting scope.

The 'centers' are for the V bull and 5 ring so you will need to make up a larger target for the 4,3, and 2. During a match, the V and 5 center would be put on the larger target, if there are errant shots in the outside rings, these can be easily patched. The center is replaced each time so there isn't issues with scoring or obsuring the rings.

For practise, I put 2 centers side by side on a piece of 8 1/2X11 which I can photocopy. Now I can shoot a full relay using both targets and not have too many holes to keep track of.

My practise would typically be 2 + 10 (or 11) with 6 shots per target. Now I can get 4 'relays' in per box of ammo - 2X100, 2X200. Simple.

My suggestion is to allow bedding and trigger work (but not swapping trigger parts) in the factory bolt class. That way, the savage, cz, marlin, ruger rigs can shoot at their best. So many factory stocks have such generous inletting that the poor rifle shoots no where near its potential.

Certainly push the Anschutz, Walters, olympic style/quality rifles to custom. That is where they belong.

Where it will become difficult would be a Weatherby or Cooper. Are these customs (anschutz, aftermarket match barrels) or factory rigs?

Setting up these kind of rules is never fun and no one seems to ever be satisfied so I appreciate the head ache it can cause.

Let me know about the targets.

Jerry
 
Great thread Jerry and exactly what I was looking for. I'm new to this and wondering if you would you mind explaining "fouling" as well as summarizing your ammo choice with cost?
 
Fouling is used to describe how dirty a rifle gets.

In rimfire, fouling/dirt can be a very positive thing. I find that I rarely clean my bores and they just keep shooting. I think there is a build up of wax that makes for a very consistent bore.

Just shoot your rifle a bunch - several hundred rds - keeping track of its performance. Then clean and see what happens.

If groups open up then shrink after a box or two, then your combo like to run dirty. If the groups start small then expand, you want to clean at so many rds.

Ammo choice was easy. Look at all the quality match ammo at a price point you can afford to shoot. Get a box or two to test. Shoot 5 5ds groups in calm air. Choose the ammo that gives the smallest and most consistent grouping.

Some rifles need 5 to 10 rds to settle down when changing ammo - it's that fouling thing again.

When shooting at 100 and 200yds, it is real obvious when a combo isn't going to work.

In general, the more money you pay, the higher the QC and the smaller the amount of flyers.

However, great ammo may not shoot in your rifle. Rimfire is ubber picky.

When testing, ask to ensure that the lot you get has ammo for you to stock up. Lots vary so you find BrandX Lot a to shoot great but Lot b might shoot poorly.

I bought a case of the ammo my rifle liked. It should be happy for a season or two.

Just a balance between performance and budget.

Jerry
 
Jerry, any chance you can post a picture of the bedding you did on the MkII? I had thought about bedding mine but there just didn't seem like enough stock to hold the bedding compound.
 
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