BCL Siberian 1000 round range session - awful results

[tiriaq]

The stoppages seemed to be:
-over insertion of magazines. No positive stop incorporated? Possible with some makes of magazines not with others? Operator error?
-double feeds. Failure to extract? Failure to eject? Fired cases not being cleared, therefore a stoppage resulting when the top round in the magazine has nowhere to go? Why did these stoppages occur?
-light strikes. Primer marked but not indented sufficiently to result in ignition. Why? Hammer blow insufficient? Bolt carrier not fully forward?

Was any effort made to determine why these stoppages occurred? Any explanations?

 

[sk8snwmx]

At 3:10. I came to that conclusion at about 0:24 and again at 25:40. I don't think he should quit his day job for a career in comedy. Vid was informative outside the "humor".

I had the same almost cringe feeling about the way the 'test' was conducted and was almost embaressed for the guy sometimes fumbling with the gun and yelling out guessed failures then realizing it was actually something else.

I didn't watch the entire clip, but did you guys say that the previous testers of the rifle also had failures to feed and eject? Is this a test gun that is being handed from tester to tester with known issues or was the gun new?

Apparently, the next comment right below.. why 'test' a rifle that's already known to be a dud? with mags that are known to have failures in lots of other rifles, a bunch of ammo it might not like... etc etc etc.

Not involved but I do know it's been warrantied twice now for breakages and QC problems, don't remember what for though

Mr meat shower, question for you... How many of the stoppages were created by the mags in use? I would've appreciated a breakdown in the description or video of how many and what type of stoppage. I've had an equal number of stoppages in the same number of rounds with a C8, caused by a bad batch of Pmags.
There's another review on YouTube that does a "torcher test" and he deems the rifle "unsafe" after the bolt shows signs of wear. It likely wouldn't "wear prematurely" if rocks and dirt weren't crammed into the open ejection port lol. Most people conduct those tests with sand or mud. Certainly not judging, I appreciate all the effort to properly test these rifles, just need to be conducted in a thorough manner that gives them validity when compared to other brands. Appreciate your time and effort, the video was entertaining and you got my sub.

Speaking of mud and crud and oil, go to about 15:20 in the video and take a look at the closeup of the rifle covered in oil and the chamber just full of crud. I've shot about 600 now and mine looks still fairly clean other then carbon.

Some guys had no issues with their WK180s over a few thousand rounds too. And holy hell did those simps try to discredit the people that had serious issues.
Every rifle has its duds. The big question - is this rifle an isolated POS or are the problems common enough to be concerned?

Above they stated, was sent for work twice before they got it...

cool video. i din't know the Village People were still around.

LOL

 

[hawk-i]

deleted comment.

 

[fritzhanzel]

I had the same almost cringe feeling about the way the 'test' was conducted and was almost embaressed for the guy sometimes fumbling with the gun and yelling out guessed failures then realizing it was actually something else.


Apparently, the next comment right below.. why 'test' a rifle that's already known to be a dud? with mags that are known to have failures in lots of other rifles, a bunch of ammo it might not like... etc etc etc.




Speaking of mud and crud and oil, go to about 15:20 in the video and take a look at the closeup of the rifle covered in oil and the chamber just full of crud. I've shot about 600 now and mine looks still fairly clean other then carbon.


Above they stated, was sent for work twice before they got it...



LOL

I posted above already and I also second Tiraq's remarks. I mean it looks like comedy and I guess it is. But what do you expect when you purposely put mud with little rocks into the chamber? I have had mixed experiences with different ammo on all my semis, so I stick with better quality ammo. Fiocchi really works for me, yes it is somewhat more expensive. Cross mags is a sponsor so I guess they got them for free which is fine. But not the best magazines, just my opinion.

A good testing in all environments would be fine for me too if they would compare rifles, like cheaper stuff mixed with more expensive rifles, I mean a CZ Bren 2 is a lot more I know but if you just test it for one month and sell it, you won't lose much money.

I had minor issues with my SRV2, nothing I could not manage. Magazines and ammo mostly. But I do repair stuff as a hobby, most people these days can't even do an oil change on a car or put a suspension spacer in their truck.

Again, Tiriaq's questions are 100 % on the mark, what did you do to fix the problems? More mud? That's my comedy remark but I wonder, haha.

 

[Bratwurst]

I posted above already and I also second Tiraq's remarks. I mean it looks like comedy and I guess it is. But what do you expect when you purposely put mud with little rocks into the chamber? I have had mixed experiences with different ammo on all my semis, so I stick with better quality ammo. Fiocchi really works for me, yes it is somewhat more expensive. Cross mags is a sponsor so I guess they got them for free which is fine. But not the best magazines, just my opinion.

A good testing in all environments would be fine for me too if they would compare rifles, like cheaper stuff mixed with more expensive rifles, I mean a CZ Bren 2 is a lot more I know but if you just test it for one month and sell it, you won't lose much money.

I had minor issues with my SRV2, nothing I could not manage. Magazines and ammo mostly. But I do repair stuff as a hobby, most people these days can't even do an oil change on a car or put a suspension spacer in their truck.

Again, Tiriaq's questions are 100 % on the mark, what did you do to fix the problems? More mud? That's my comedy remark but I wonder, haha.

The rifle arrived clean according to MrMeatShower, dirt isn't really a factor if that's accurate

 

[alpining]

Just wondering why there are so many different experiences....

I have no vested interest in this rifle one way or the other. But frankly, there are really no useful conclusions that can be drawn from testing any one unit of any firearm. The results of testing a single unit are anecdotal at best.

Every production run - even of the best quality design and manufacture - will have some duds. So they are capable of making a bad one. So what?

Just like every production run - even of the worst quality design and manufacture - will have some that work fine. So they are capable of making a good one. So what?

If you standardize testing methods and compare say... five or more units, then we can start getting information that is actually useful beyond an interesting anecdote. (statisticians, feel free to suggest a better threshold)

 

[the radium king]

i think what i learned from this is to clean every 500 rounds or so (which i would do anyways) avoid cross mags (which i would do anyways) and get an aftermarket trigger (which i would do anyways). no deal-breakers here. certainly nothing 'awful'.

otherwise, they say the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect different results. so if you find out in the first 100 rounds that cross mags don't work with the bolt catch, then continuing to run cross mags and recording every time the bolt catch doesn't work isn't really a fair count of failures.

and once the gun got too dirty to function properly (and all that oil did not help) then continuing to count all the related failures (fail to eject, fail to extract, light primer strikes) doesn't make a lot of sense. i mean at the start they praise it for being lightly gassed, then they operate in conditions that require more gas and complain that it doesn't work?

the trigger is most likely the lowest bid from a third-party supplier, so if you buy a gun at the lowest price-point on the market you do expose yourself to such things.

a bit of practice clearing jams and a less-limp hand on the charging handle would solve some of those double feeds.

failure to feed is i presume a mag/mag insertion issue as well, unless there was some serious wear on guide rails, etc.?

i think if somebody wants a replacement for their AR then they gotta pony up 2x to 3x $ for a bren or g36. otherwise this is marketed as a canadian modern sporting rifle - varmints, targets, 3-gun. you wouldn't expect pappy's remington 740 to run for 1000 rounds without cleaning so why the siberian - because it's black, or has a foldy thing that goes on your shoulder?

 

[Scotty454]

i think what i learned from this is to clean every 500 rounds or so (which i would do anyways) avoid cross mags (which i would do anyways) and get an aftermarket trigger (which i would do anyways). no deal-breakers here. certainly nothing 'awful'.

otherwise, they say the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect different results. so if you find out in the first 100 rounds that cross mags don't work with the bolt catch, then continuing to run cross mags and recording every time the bolt catch doesn't work isn't really a fair count of failures.

and once the gun got too dirty to function properly (and all that oil did not help) then continuing to count all the related failures (fail to eject, fail to extract, light primer strikes) doesn't make a lot of sense. i mean at the start they praise it for being lightly gassed, then they operate in conditions that require more gas and complain that it doesn't work?

the trigger is most likely the lowest bid from a third-party supplier, so if you buy a gun at the lowest price-point on the market you do expose yourself to such things.

a bit of practice clearing jams and a less-limp hand on the charging handle would solve some of those double feeds.

failure to feed is i presume a mag/mag insertion issue as well, unless there was some serious wear on guide rails, etc.?

i think if somebody wants a replacement for their AR then they gotta pony up 2x to 3x $ for a bren or g36. otherwise this is marketed as a canadian modern sporting rifle - varmints, targets, 3-gun. you wouldn't expect pappy's remington 740 to run for 1000 rounds without cleaning so why the siberian - because it's black, or has a foldy thing that goes on your shoulder?

This. Pretty much all of it.

They claim people are fed up with low round count tests, and maybe they are, but what kind of person runs a gun like this? Identify a potential cause of a failure and do absolutely nothing about it, just keep inducing that same failure and getting mad about it? MANY guns are fussy about magazines, especially when there's such a wide variety of mags available (The best .223 example is probably STANAG magazines). Cross-mags obviously just don't work well in these guns (I have a buddy that tried the same combo, over-insertion problems for days). Maybe the cutout in the mag is too shallow, edges not sharp enough, maybe the mag catch isn't adjusted properly on the Siberian, whatever, but they just seem to not work well. A reasonable person would run different magazines and move on with life. I run E-Lander steel mags in my Siberian, and haven't had a single feeding issue. Maybe I missed the lemons, but it seems like the majority of the failures in the video could easily be mag related.

That all being said, another conclusion you could come to would be that the Siberian would greatly benefit from some sort of positive stop in the magwell to prevent magazine over-insertion. Lol.

 

[Can-down]

The video was a bit heavy on the drama/entertainment side and less scientific data driven that's for sure and I agree that it would have been great to have had 2 guns and maybe just run 500 rounds side by side and see if it's a trend or an abnormally.

 

[rugbydave]

This. Pretty much all of it.

They claim people are fed up with low round count tests, and maybe they are, but what kind of person runs a gun like this? Identify a potential cause of a failure and do absolutely nothing about it, just keep inducing that same failure and getting mad about it? MANY guns are fussy about magazines, especially when there's such a wide variety of mags available (The best .223 example is probably STANAG magazines). Cross-mags obviously just don't work well in these guns (I have a buddy that tried the same combo, over-insertion problems for days). Maybe the cutout in the mag is too shallow, edges not sharp enough, maybe the mag catch isn't adjusted properly on the Siberian, whatever, but they just seem to not work well. A reasonable person would run different magazines and move on with life. I run E-Lander steel mags in my Siberian, and haven't had a single feeding issue. Maybe I missed the lemons, but it seems like the majority of the failures in the video could easily be mag related.

That all being said, another conclusion you could come to would be that the Siberian would greatly benefit from some sort of positive stop in the magwell to prevent magazine over-insertion. Lol.

Not related to the video but can you shoot your Siberian mag-podded without inducing failures? Everyone I know who has one (and every one I've tried) gets failures (normally a failure to feed or failure to go fully into battery) when magpodding with Pmags generally being worse than metal Stanag mags.

 

[Scotty454]

Not related to the video but can you shoot your Siberian mag-podded without inducing failures? Everyone I know who has one (and every one I've tried) gets failures (normally a failure to feed or failure to go fully into battery) when magpodding with Pmags generally being worse than metal Stanag mags.

I've never tried. I've always kind of thought that forcing a mag all the way in one direction or another would be a good way to cause feeding issues, so I avoid it if I can.

 

[Gator0387]

This forum just plain makes me laugh at times. Dudes took time to test a rifle on behalf of the Canadian consumer, as most will only ever put a box or two through their rifle and deem it "reliable". Worse yet the sea of "unboxing" opinions.

These guys used their own time, own ammo and own rifles to give us this information. What do they get for it? A bunch of dudes ranting and raving to cope with a purchase they have already made.

Its a data point, guys. Take it, or don't. There is no need to criticize the information, or the testers.

Think you can do better? Pony up for the ammo.

Thanks Mr. Meatshower and CFET for doing these kinds of tests. Most of the guns left available to us see nowhere near the round count that can be had south of the border. Its good data, and I for one appreciate your efforts.

- Gator

 

[Scotty454]

This forum just plain makes me laugh at times. Dudes took time to test a rifle on behalf of the Canadian consumer, as most will only ever put a box or two through their rifle and deem it "reliable". Worse yet the sea of "unboxing" opinions.

These guys used their own time, own ammo and own rifles to give us this information. What do they get for it? A bunch of dudes ranting and raving to cope with a purchase they have already made.

Its a data point, guys. Take it, or don't. There is no need to criticize the information, or the testers.

Think you can do better? Pony up for the ammo.

Thanks Mr. Meatshower and CFET for doing these kinds of tests. Most of the guns left available to us see nowhere near the round count that can be had south of the border. Its good data, and I for one appreciate your efforts.

- Gator

One way or another, there's good stuff in the video. Whether it be what to do or what not to do, we all learned some stuff. Can't be a bad thing.

 

[Crash2k]

My Siberian is low round count right now, but I can tell that my first trip to the range wasn't fun. After the first 20 rounds, it started to jam almost every shot (FTF). It was pretty clear to me that it was related that there was not enough gas for the bolt to pick the next round properly. Back home I found out that the gas plug was loose and couple of turn unscrewed. Added a drop or 2 of blue loctite and screwed back the gas plug. Since then only had 2 failed to feed on the last 300 rounds. Those 2 FTF were both related to the Norinco ammo (white box) being a bit too long (inconsistency of COAL) for the Crossmag. Ya I know... I still have a bunch of those Norinco 5.56 white boxes around ��.

I wonder if they checked the gas plug after the test and found something

 

[Innavedaw]

Its a data point, guys. Take it, or don't. There is no need to criticize the information, or the testers.

. Its good data…

Speaking of making you laugh, here’s a dude that thinks any data is good data.

The criticism is legitimate…the testing seems designed to support a position the testers had prior to doing the testing.

 

[MrMeatShower]

Speaking of making you laugh, here’s a dude that thinks any data is good data.

The criticism is legitimate…the testing seems designed to support a position the testers had prior to doing the testing.

The testing was designed to see if a Canadian made firearm could reliably shoot 1000 rounds through it. I don’t see how people are twisting other narratives into it.

And as for data, considering there is not much on this rifle in the time it’s been released, the argument that all data is good data is real. Neither BCL or any other person or organization has ran a large volume of fire through and SRV2 and published the results. This is usually a test that is conducted by manufacturers to show the reliability of a firearm. Is said test usually conducted in a more professional and uniformed matter? Yes. But this was a community sourced test. We simply do not have access to the resources a manufacturer would have available. People and retailers voluntarily chipped in to contribute to the test.

I invite you to organize and execute a similar test.

 

[sk8snwmx]

This forum just plain makes me laugh at times. Dudes took time to test a rifle on behalf of the Canadian consumer, as most will only ever put a box or two through their rifle and deem it "reliable". Worse yet the sea of "unboxing" opinions.
These guys used their own time, own ammo and own rifles to give us this information. What do they get for it? A bunch of dudes ranting and raving to cope with a purchase they have already made.
- Gator

This was not their rifle at all, I think you missed the part that this was a used rifle that already a a few thousand rounds through it and had gone in for warranty work twice already... basically a dud to begin with. They already knew the outcome...

 

[MrMeatShower]

Well aren’t things supposed to work when they come back from warranty work?

 

[TKB35]

I appreciate the video and appreciate any video that shows reliability of a rifle. These aren’t $500 rifles, if they can’t shoot 1k rounds reliably then I want nothing to do with said rifle. Why pony up $1600-$1700 for a rifle that can’t be fully trusted?

 

[FraserGreen]

I had the same almost cringe feeling about the way the 'test' was conducted and was almost embaressed for the guy sometimes fumbling with the gun and yelling out guessed failures then realizing it was actually something else.

Apparently, the next comment right below.. why 'test' a rifle that's already known to be a dud? with mags that are known to have failures in lots of other rifles, a bunch of ammo it might not like... etc etc etc.

Speaking of mud and crud and oil, go to about 15:20 in the video and take a look at the closeup of the rifle covered in oil and the chamber just full of crud. I've shot about 600 now and mine looks still fairly clean other then carbon.

Above they stated, was sent for work twice before they got it...

If the rifle went back to the manufacturer twice to be repaired and still doesn't work that tells us a lot about their warranty service in that they don't fix things or it tells that after repairs the part that failed failed again after very few rounds. That is important to know.

The magazine market in Canada is very limited, I would go as far to say that there are probably less than 10 commonly available types of 5 or 10 round magazine being imported or made in the country in any sizeable quantity. The gun is designed to work in this market therefore it should be designed to work with the most commonly available magazines that people are likely to use or purchase. Cross Mags & Pmags are two very obvious cases yet the gun does not work well with them.

According to the video the gun was clean when it arrived. If they added oil, so what? All that does is reduce the friction of the BCG as it moves back and forth and the bolt as it rotates within the BCG. It is very very hard to over oil a 180 platform. I'd even go as far as to say that in the range conditions they were in (vs somewhere like a desert) that you effectively can't over oil the receiver.