BCL102 Range Review, SECOND RANGE TRIP POST 123!!!

beltfed said:
Were these things shipped with a cleaning kit?
How many of these guys have a proper AR-10 chamber brush, or used it on their rifles?
Click to expand...

No cleaning kit was provided with the BCL102, and I don't have an AR-10 chamber brush 'yet'...

So, I'm on the hunt! Suggestions?

Cheers
Jay
 
beltfed said:
Maybe.
My experience with my MWS (16") and SR-25 (20") indicates that most (there are exceptions) store bought ammo that isn't 7.62 NATO surplus show signs of pressure and beats the sh!t out of the gun. Some of it does quite OK as a hot loading, but the majority I've tried did not. I think GMM is a mild loading, and it shoots pretty decently in most anything. From what I've seen in this thread, the BLC-102 is following this trend with the GMM ammo.

It is known that binding of the carrier key on the gas tube can be a cause of stringing - this issue alone shows that while the AR impingement gas system isn't comparable to typical gas systems, I don't think it is the exception some believe it to be.
Powder burn rates, round feeding from a mag, crimping & neck tension all play an arguably larger factor with a semi (and the AR) than they do with a bolt gun.



I'm thinking it has more to do with brand spanking new chambers that may be a tad sticky, some limp wristing from guys who don't otherwise own this style of rifle, and perhaps feeding them questionably suitable ammo.

Were these things shipped with a cleaning kit?
How many of these guys have a proper AR-10 chamber brush, or used it on their rifles?
Click to expand...

Most match ammo is fairly mild in 308 as the accuracy node is usually fairly low and they are designed for a 20-26" barrel. Around the 2600 fps range. You shouldn't be experiencing that with your LMT or SR25 as they were both designed to shoot M118LR (not surplus) which is very close to the 175 Federal Gold ammunition. I shoot a M118LR/175 federal gold reload round out of my Armalite AR10T rifles and they print in the high end tactical bolt gun range for accuracy. Your LMT may be harsher since you're using the 16" barrel (CL or SS? CL is 1:10 twist) which uses a carbine gas tube while your SR25 uses a rifle length gas tube and should be smoother. The LMT is often a bit over gassed for reliability due to the shorter 16" barrel length. The extra recoil depending on brake or not and 16" braked vs 20" braked could also cause it to feel like it's beating up the action. Again these military rifles aren't built for surplus ammo, they are built for match grade ammo that is based off the 175 SMK bullet and for all purposes is the Federal Gold 175 smk round.

Use varget 43-44 grains with 167-175 bullets, 2.8 OAL. The same as I use in my bolt 308 guns. In fact I use the same loads in my 5R milspec as I do with my 1:11.25 twist 20" or 24" barreled AR10/AR308 rifles. Once again they have the same barrel length and twist rates. I have both 24" and 20" 5R milspec rifles as well as 20" and 24" AR10/AR308 rifles again with 1:11.25 twist rate. The ammo is interchangeable the same way the Americans were using the same ammo in their M24 rifles as their SR25 ( M118LR round 175 smk) . In fact the first SR25 rifles used in the military competition which they won, was sporting Remington 5R SS 1:11.25 barrels. These rifles are all considered very accurate whether semi or bolt.

Also the 168 Federal Gold ammunition is pretty much the standard for base line testing with any of these types of tactical precision rifles. Whether bolt or semi auto. It's the first round I start with in 308 with these types of rifles and testing for accuracy.

Absolutely the AR is the exception in the semi auto world. The only other semi autos I can think of that offered this type of performance was the WA2000 and HK PSG-1. If you have an extra $35,000 to $75000 for the WA2000 or $12000 for an HK PSG-1 (Prohibited in Canada) then it might be a fun comparison. How many semi autos can you buy with a .5 moa guarantee? My Stag 6R came with a .5 moa guarantee and so does the Les Bauer Super varminter. My stag was under $1600.

Again, choose appropriate ammo based on the barrel whether bolt or semi auto. Here is the hard part as there isn't much out there on an 18.5 1:10 twist barrel. If you don't think barrel length matters, look at the Colt Canada C8 with a 15.7" instead of 16" barrel length.

Anyways, I suspect things will work for the better when more 167-178 ammo rounds are tested with these rifles (BCL 102). some 155 Palma style rounds might work decently too. On a side note, I would actually prefer a military model of the BCL 102 with 20" barrel and 1:11.25 twist rate along with rifle length gas tube. As it's far easier to get off the shelf ammo for them that shoots in that .5 to .75 moa range. Reloads are also very easy. The 18.5" with 1:10 twist isn't an option I would personally chose. But I'm fairly confident when I get mine that I will be able to get it doing fairly well. As long as I don't get a Friday special!
 
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Epoxy7 said:
Most match ammo is fairly mild in 308 as the accuracy node is usually fairly low and they are designed for a 20-26" barrel. Around the 2600 fps range. You shouldn't be experiencing that with your LMT or SR25 as they were both designed to shoot M118LR (not surplus) which is very close to the 175 Federal Gold ammunition. I shoot a M118LR/175 federal gold reload round out of my Armalite AR10T rifles and they print in the high end tactical bolt gun range for accuracy. Your LMT may be harsher since you're using the 16" barrel (CL or SS? CL is 1:10 twist) which uses a carbine gas tube while your SR25 uses a rifle length gas tube and should be smoother. The LMT is often a bit over gassed for reliability due to the shorter 16" barrel length. The extra recoil depending on brake or not and 16" braked vs 20" braked could also cause it to feel like it's beating up the action. Again these military rifles aren't built for surplus ammo, they are built for match grade ammo that is based off the 175 SMK bullet and for all purposes is the Federal Gold 175 smk round.

Use varget 43-44 grains with 167-175 bullets, 2.8 OAL. The same as I use in my bolt 308 guns. In fact I use the same loads in my 5R milspec as I do with my 1:11.25 twist 20" or 24" barreled AR10/AR308 rifles. Once again they have the same barrel length and twist rates. I have both 24" and 20" 5R milspec rifles as well as 20" and 24" AR10/AR308 rifles again with 1:11.25 twist rate. The ammo is interchangeable the same way the Americans were using the same ammo in their M24 rifles as their SR25 ( M118LR round 175 smk) . In fact the first SR25 rifles used in the military competition which they won, was sporting Remington 5R SS 1:11.25 barrels. These rifles are all considered very accurate whether semi or bolt.

Also the 168 Federal Gold ammunition is pretty much the standard for base line testing with any of these types of tactical precision rifles. Whether bolt or semi auto. It's the first round I start with in 308 with these types of rifles and testing for accuracy.

Absolutely the AR is the exception in the semi auto world. The only other semi autos I can think of that offered this type of performance was the WA2000 and HK PSG-1. If you have an extra $35,000 to $75000 for the WA2000 or $12000 for an HK PSG-1 (Prohibited in Canada) then it might be a fun comparison. How many semi autos can you buy with a .5 moa guarantee? My Stag 6R came with a .5 moa guarantee and so does the Les Bauer Super varminter. My stag was under $1600.

Again, choose appropriate ammo based on the barrel whether bolt or semi auto. Here is the hard part as there isn't much out there on an 18.5 1:10 twist barrel. If you don't think barrel length matters, look at the Colt Canada C8 with a 15.7" instead of 16" barrel length.

Anyways, I suspect things will work for the better when more 167-178 ammo rounds are tested with these rifles (BCL 102). some 155 Palma style rounds might work decently too. On a side note, I would actually prefer a military model of the BCL 102 with 20" barrel and 1:11.25 twist rate along with rifle length gas tube. As it's far easier to get off the shelf ammo for them that shoots in that .5 to .75 moa range. Reloads are also very easy. The 18.5" with 1:10 twist isn't an option I would personally chose. But I'm fairly confident when I get mine that I will be able to get it doing fairly well. As long as I don't get a Friday special!
Click to expand...

Thanks Epoxy7. Your post led me to find an interesting blog entitled:

The M118 LR Chamber: The .223 Wylde of the .308 AR World

https://sierrabulletsblog.com/2017/06/13/the-m118-lr-chamber-the-223-wylde-of-the-308-ar-world/

Food for thought.
 
Epoxy7 said:
I would actually prefer a military model of the BCL 102 with 20" barrel and 1:11.25 twist rate along with rifle length gas tube. As it's far easier to get off the shelf ammo for them that shoots in that .5 to .75 moa range. Reloads are also very easy. The 18.5" with 1:10 twist isn't an option I would personally chose. But I'm fairly confident when I get mine that I will be able to get it doing fairly well. As long as I don't get a Friday special!
Click to expand...


Im sure hope aftermarket barrels will be available shortly :)
 
Epoxy7 said:
Most match ammo is fairly mild in 308 as the accuracy node is usually fairly low and they are designed for a 20-26" barrel. Around the 2600 fps range. You shouldn't be experiencing that with your LMT or SR25 as they were both designed to shoot M118LR (not surplus) which is very close to the 175 Federal Gold ammunition. I shoot a M118LR/175 federal gold reload round out of my Armalite AR10T rifles and they print in the high end tactical bolt gun range for accuracy. Your LMT may be harsher since you're using the 16" barrel (CL or SS? CL is 1:10 twist) which uses a carbine gas tube while your SR25 uses a rifle length gas tube and should be smoother. The LMT is often a bit over gassed for reliability due to the shorter 16" barrel length. The extra recoil depending on brake or not and 16" braked vs 20" braked could also cause it to feel like it's beating up the action. Again these military rifles aren't built for surplus ammo, they are built for match grade ammo that is based off the 175 SMK bullet and for all purposes is the Federal Gold 175 smk round.

Use varget 43-44 grains with 167-175 bullets, 2.8 OAL. The same as I use in my bolt 308 guns. In fact I use the same loads in my 5R milspec as I do with my 1:11.25 twist 20" or 24" barreled AR10/AR308 rifles. Once again they have the same barrel length and twist rates. I have both 24" and 20" 5R milspec rifles as well as 20" and 24" AR10/AR308 rifles again with 1:11.25 twist rate. The ammo is interchangeable the same way the Americans were using the same ammo in their M24 rifles as their SR25 ( M118LR round 175 smk) . In fact the first SR25 rifles used in the military competition which they won, was sporting Remington 5R SS 1:11.25 barrels. These rifles are all considered very accurate whether semi or bolt.

Also the 168 Federal Gold ammunition is pretty much the standard for base line testing with any of these types of tactical precision rifles. Whether bolt or semi auto. It's the first round I start with in 308 with these types of rifles and testing for accuracy.

Absolutely the AR is the exception in the semi auto world. The only other semi autos I can think of that offered this type of performance was the WA2000 and HK PSG-1. If you have an extra $35,000 to $75000 for the WA2000 or $12000 for an HK PSG-1 (Prohibited in Canada) then it might be a fun comparison. How many semi autos can you buy with a .5 moa guarantee? My Stag 6R came with a .5 moa guarantee and so does the Les Bauer Super varminter. My stag was under $1600.

Again, choose appropriate ammo based on the barrel whether bolt or semi auto. Here is the hard part as there isn't much out there on an 18.5 1:10 twist barrel. If you don't think barrel length matters, look at the Colt Canada C8 with a 15.7" instead of 16" barrel length.

Anyways, I suspect things will work for the better when more 167-178 ammo rounds are tested with these rifles (BCL 102). some 155 Palma style rounds might work decently too. On a side note, I would actually prefer a military model of the BCL 102 with 20" barrel and 1:11.25 twist rate along with rifle length gas tube. As it's far easier to get off the shelf ammo for them that shoots in that .5 to .75 moa range. Reloads are also very easy. The 18.5" with 1:10 twist isn't an option I would personally chose. But I'm fairly confident when I get mine that I will be able to get it doing fairly well. As long as I don't get a Friday special!
Click to expand...

Right from the manual for the Mk 11 Mod 2 states: M118LR, M118 special purpose ball, M852 Match, M80 Ball and M993 Armour Piercing or other authorized ammo (ie. other 7.62 NATO). That's the SR-25. Similar with the MWS, I have no doubt as they are kissing cousins.

A good synopsis of the development of the above mentioned ammo:
www<dot>snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/

And an interesting comment about it's use and suitability in the AR-10 platform:
"This time around it was the Navy Special Warfare Center that headed up the charge to develop a product improved version of the M118LR ammunition to address the temperature sensitively, muzzle flash, and accuracy complaints and it also needed to be able to function in the new crop of semi-auto sniper rifles being employed by the various armed forces. "

The point I'm making is that while the AR-10 may digest most store bought ammo, I wouldn't expect the best accuracy with it.
I'm talking about the run of the mill hunting ammo guys are showing boxes of, not the store bought match ammo like GMM or the like.

I'd recommend you guys Chrono that stuff and keep an eye on the spent brass.
As always: YMMV.
 
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This is two 5-round groups of 175gr FGMM @ 100 yards today.

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