BCL102 Range Review, SECOND RANGE TRIP POST 123!!!
- Thread starter Jay
- Start date
You stated earlier the A-10 platform wasn't meant to shoot surplus.
Most all 7.62 surplus is likely sourced as at one time NATO accepted production.
Not suggesting you are, but let's not confuse this with newly produced stuff from Norinco or Barnel or the like.
Not for accuracy it's not. They are used as DM rifles but need the ability to shoot whatever is available when the SHTF. Hence the M118LR round being what it's meant to shoot and the others being able to shoot if it's pick up what's laying around or die scenario.
Do a google search.
Sure, agree to disagree. Ancient history that allows this to be shot out of a Canadian military AR10T. The load is based on the M118LR. IE the 175 SMk Federal Gold. This was shot about 5 or 6 years ago now. 5 rounds, 100 metres. Bipod 9x scope. It's the hotter load by the way. How does this compare to the current findings with the BCL 102? Hmmm...... Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
Not for accuracy it's not. They are used as DM rifles but need the ability to shoot whatever is available when the SHTF. Hence the M118LR round being what it's meant to shoot and the others being able to shoot if it's pick up what's laying around or die scenario.
Do a google search.
Sure, agree to disagree. Ancient history that allows this to be shot out of a Canadian military AR10T. The load is based on the M118LR. IE the 175 SMk Federal Gold. This was shot about 5 or 6 years ago now. 5 rounds, 100 metres. Bipod 9x scope. It's the hotter load by the way. How does this compare to the current findings with the BCL 102? Hmmm...... Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
Ok then, here you go with the Google:
https:_//ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2009/infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf
https_://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/9/12/advances-in-us-sniping-ammunition-from-vietnam-to-afghanistan/
There's some other stuff too, and more than a few pointing to other forums like sniper central, lightfighter and M4C with cool campfire stories of similar info embellished with neat stuff - near as I can tell anyhow.
Can't seem to find verifiable evidence that current US military ammo is tuned in any way for the obsolete M-14 platform. There is verbiage however pointing to consideration for current semi-auto sniping systems (Ie. AR-10s).
Which brings us back to my original point about tuning ammo (specifically hand loads) to the AR-10, and (hopefully) by extension, the BCL-102. I'm not drawing parallels to the M-14 or the M-1 as it's apples and oranges
The fact that the 'M118' spec. family of sniping ammo has seen continual development, modification and testing down the years to ensure it is staying current both technologically (components of the ammo itself and in the platforms it is being utilized in) and in performance is proof positive that ammunition can indeed be tuned for the AR-10.
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I have seen some shooting with suppressors. Might be a factor... also water flushing down the toilet in the opposite direction might be a cause of the good groups...
You must be right. Getting bored. I concede. What do I know. I'll leave you to debate with "Frederick Salberta". Seems pretty credible to me. Either way, the round works for me very well. It looks like it works in the BCL 102 as well. Go figure....
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
And that is why ammo for these semis is "different" from bolt rifles.
Obviously, quality ammo from a semi will work in a bolt rifle... but ammo for a bolt rifle may not - wrt to function and accuracy.
Jerry
Obviously, quality ammo from a semi will work in a bolt rifle... but ammo for a bolt rifle may not - wrt to function and accuracy.
Jerry
My point is the AR10 is the exception to the semi autos are different belief. Off the shelf Federal Gold 168 and 175 is match ammo for the AR10/SR 25 as well and is the standard for tactical bolt guns. Once again minor things to keep in mind. You aren't dealing with the extra complications of the M14. 175 Federal gold clones even a bit hotter ie the original stuff for the bolt guns are a go in the SR 25. The same stuff I feed my tactical bolt actions. Load for the barrel length and twist. Just like a bolt. The other semi auto special reloading and voodoo nonsense for the AR is a throw back to the M14.
With the above quote about the load being brought down in 2003 due to op rod failures in the M14. The SR 25 was in service at that time as well and was using the bolt gun ammo without issue. The load was lowered because of the M14 breaking down. The load had to be changed to accommodate the M14, not the SR 25.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
7.62 NATO has a max pressure around 60K
308 SAAMI is 62K ... Not a huge difference agreed but the types of powder used can be.
Bolt action ammo can use anything SAAMI acceptable. I feel AR15's perform best when the amount of gas pressure and volume is reduced... unless there is a way to control the gas flow.
I look forward to my testing to see where the BCL and MH prefer to shoot for powder charge and velocity. maybe these will come close to bolt rifle standards? Maybe they will prefer much softer loads????
Hopefully, rains will come and we can get going later in Sept.
Jerry
308 SAAMI is 62K ... Not a huge difference agreed but the types of powder used can be.
Bolt action ammo can use anything SAAMI acceptable. I feel AR15's perform best when the amount of gas pressure and volume is reduced... unless there is a way to control the gas flow.
I look forward to my testing to see where the BCL and MH prefer to shoot for powder charge and velocity. maybe these will come close to bolt rifle standards? Maybe they will prefer much softer loads????
Hopefully, rains will come and we can get going later in Sept.
Jerry
I have seen some shooting with suppressors. Might be a factor... also water flushing down the toilet in the opposite direction might be a cause of the good groups...
LOL!!!! soooooo true.
Who is Fredrick Salberta?
I've seen that post before, and I've also seen portions of it regurgitated as it were gospel.
I've also seen the report about the M118LR load showing signs of pressure and causing stoppages in the early 2000s in Iraq, and missed the part where it singled out the M-14 as the reasoning for modifying the load. Again, near as I can tell, Fredrick's post is hypothesizing, laying the blame on the M-14, when in reality the issues were with the ammo - across the board in all their guns.
The AR fow are an exception to mechanical gas guns, the M-14 included - no one is disputing that...but they are still gas guns. You still need to account for gas unlocking the bolt and cycling the action. The ammo you feed it matters more so than what is typically driven in a bolt gun.
Military ammo and shooting aside, there is a ton of info from High power guys like David Tubb that have put plenty of shooting and R&D into the AR-10/SR-25. Although Tubb moved on early from the 308 round, the principles are the same with other hod-rod ammo. The recurring theme: Ammo suitable for a bolt gun is downloaded and typically tuned for suitability in the AR-10. Interestingly, he has also well documented his modifications with pushing out the gas block, mod'ing the gas port so as to use that same ammo that goes in the bolt guns, and yet still tunes it for suitability...
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Don't reinvent the wheel. Especially when you've got the history wrong. With regards to the discussion at hand. I've said my piece, please refer to the image below. That being said, I am looking forward to getting a BCL 102 rifle as well! I look forward to more range reports/reviews. Please keep them coming.
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The only thing I have issue with is your claim that tuning and handloading for an AR-10 is leftover 'voodoo' as you put it, from the M-14 days. It's unsubstantiated. If you have some written proof that this is the case, please post it.
You attempted to back your idea by posting an internet article of some guy's opinion which aligns with that thinking which has no supporting data. It isn't that I couldn't find the article with google or other forums that I'm on, it is that it's just that for all I know, it's some guy at a keyboard typing out his biased opinion.
I refuted that claim in part and posted a link to the below Crane document. Nowhere in that document does it talk about changing the ammo to suite the M-14 (specifically), but they do specifically talk about modifying the ammo for the current crop of semi-auto sniping systems.
https:_//ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2009/infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf
You attempted to back your idea by posting an internet article of some guy's opinion which aligns with that thinking which has no supporting data. It isn't that I couldn't find the article with google or other forums that I'm on, it is that it's just that for all I know, it's some guy at a keyboard typing out his biased opinion.
I refuted that claim in part and posted a link to the below Crane document. Nowhere in that document does it talk about changing the ammo to suite the M-14 (specifically), but they do specifically talk about modifying the ammo for the current crop of semi-auto sniping systems.
https:_//ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2009/infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8524.pdf
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Outcast
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
On a more happy note, after ordering my BCl102 I have also bought the following:
Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8 with loepuld mount
Hogue AR grip
Bipod attachment
Stubby vertical grip
Fab Core stock
A2 bird cage flash hider
Large gunfighter charging handle
QD sling attachments.
Looking forward to hitting the range, and the mountains.
Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8 with loepuld mount
Hogue AR grip
Bipod attachment
Stubby vertical grip
Fab Core stock
A2 bird cage flash hider
Large gunfighter charging handle
QD sling attachments.
Looking forward to hitting the range, and the mountains.
