- Location
- West Quebec
Wish this training was available around here.
I'd take it and carry whether someone else thinks I should or not..
Bears !!
- Thread starter GunBlast
- Start date
Wish this training was available around here.
I'd take it and carry whether someone else thinks I should or not..
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
Yup.
A shotgun delivers a big, heavy payload, but without breaking major bones or a CNS shot, your bear will still be able to deliver serious, or fatal injury to someone IMO. I have, however, dropped a small number of bears with "typical" hunting rifles (.270, 308, 30-06) instantly, due to the shock of the shot, which you can't get with a shotgun. About three were at 15 yards or less, so typical "bear defense" type range.
IMO, a "vitals" shot in a defensive situation is generally not that great anyway. CNS or major bone is more appropriate to stop a bear in it's tracks, regardless of what firearm you are using. You can deliver a fatal coup-de-grace after the fact if you need to.
999 this is what we teach you must stop all forward motion, if it can't move it can't hurt you,break it down by breaking bone,when he comes at you head down hit between the shoulders and break it's back. As dumb as it sounds when we do bear security we would prefer that the bear comes at one of our guys and take that shot as opposed to going after a client and takeing a broad side shot.Funny how this turned into a defence thread.
stay safe
pounder
stay safe
pounder
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
A black bear rifle doesn't need to be much more than a good deer rifle, but attention to the quality of the bullet might matter if you choose a small bore like a .243. In close proximity to other people, a shotgun can have an advantage over a rifle, due to its limited penetration, depending on the density of the target and the load that's in the gun. IMHO, having some experience with both blackies and polar bears, I think H4831's advice of a .30/30 carbine is bang on, with some important additional considerations. A five and a half pound lever action rifle is more likely to be in your hands when you need it, than will a 10 pound .458, that is so heavy you leave it at home or in the tent. A .30/30 you shoot well at close range will solve the problem more quickly than will a .458 you don't. A follow up shot can be made quicker with a .30/30 than it can with a .458. Consider that your target is in motion, and that you are in a stressful state of mind, not the ideal circumstances for top marksmanship. When it comes to the choice of sights, the rifle should be suitable use at close range, a bear can't hurt you if he can't touch you, and that should be the premise you operate under. A bear at 50 yards doesn't pose much of a threat, for that matter neither does one at 25, and shooting them at such ranges is not normally justifiable. If you just want to kill a bear, get a license. There are times when irons are just better than any optic regardless of cost, think about rain, sleet, snow, or fog obscuring the view through your 1-4X Nightforce. My bear guns start with the .30/06, but like Pounder's, my circumstances are a bit different.
Pounders point about bear dogs is right on, and IMHO, a pair of dogs that can effectively work together, are even more formidable. One of the most effective bear dogs I ever saw were a couple of French Poodles, complete with the stupid hair cuts and bows around their necks. Those two little buggers frequently put the run on bears that came too close to the owner's camp near the Manitoba-Ontario border, and they wouldn't chase the bear a hundred yards and come back, they would often be gone for hours, leaving the woman of the house fretting as to who came out on top. Finally they chased something they couldn't intimidate, a CNR freight train. I like German Shepherds myself, Shadow was a really good bear dog, but Ginger not so much, and I was sure she created more problems than she solved; but both were good early warning systems that something was nearby. The funniest was when I was parked at the polar bear jail one day and was talking to one of the guys inside when we heard ferocious barking, we go outside to see Ginger with all the hair on her back on end, focused on the bear picture on the outside of the building. "That's a good dog," Jack said. She did the same with a bear statue on the north end of town when she noticed it, but more than one she got a negative reaction from a bear that was minding its own business.
Many people disregard the notion that black bears pose a serious threat to people, yet blackies are responsible for more bear inflicted injuries to people than grizzlies and polar bears combined. Much of this has to do with the number of black bear that come into contact with people of course, but the fact remains, and black bear attacks frequently result in predation, a fact that should give the naysayers pause.
In the end the best protection you have against bears is not guns or dogs, but knowledge. Learn all you can about them, James Garry Shelton's trilogy of bear attack books and Stephen Herrero's book on bear attacks are a good starting point, but beware of books that are simply written to capitalize on bear attack stories. The Alaska Game Department is another good resource for reliable information.
Edited to add . . .
Don't shoot a bear in the chest and expect it to stop. Unless its put off by the noise of the gunfire it has little reason to, and it takes time for the brain to run out of oxygen with a heart or a lung shot. By the time you need to shoot he'll have got himself pretty worked up, so guess what he'll be doing between the time you shoot and the time he decides he needs to fall down. Keep that rifle at your shoulder and keep shooting until he's down. If head on, concentrate on the center of the head, the spine, and the shoulder. If you are in a situation where you must shoot a bear that is on someone else, shoot it through the hips, then kill it when it rolls clear.
Pounders point about bear dogs is right on, and IMHO, a pair of dogs that can effectively work together, are even more formidable. One of the most effective bear dogs I ever saw were a couple of French Poodles, complete with the stupid hair cuts and bows around their necks. Those two little buggers frequently put the run on bears that came too close to the owner's camp near the Manitoba-Ontario border, and they wouldn't chase the bear a hundred yards and come back, they would often be gone for hours, leaving the woman of the house fretting as to who came out on top. Finally they chased something they couldn't intimidate, a CNR freight train. I like German Shepherds myself, Shadow was a really good bear dog, but Ginger not so much, and I was sure she created more problems than she solved; but both were good early warning systems that something was nearby. The funniest was when I was parked at the polar bear jail one day and was talking to one of the guys inside when we heard ferocious barking, we go outside to see Ginger with all the hair on her back on end, focused on the bear picture on the outside of the building. "That's a good dog," Jack said. She did the same with a bear statue on the north end of town when she noticed it, but more than one she got a negative reaction from a bear that was minding its own business.
Many people disregard the notion that black bears pose a serious threat to people, yet blackies are responsible for more bear inflicted injuries to people than grizzlies and polar bears combined. Much of this has to do with the number of black bear that come into contact with people of course, but the fact remains, and black bear attacks frequently result in predation, a fact that should give the naysayers pause.
In the end the best protection you have against bears is not guns or dogs, but knowledge. Learn all you can about them, James Garry Shelton's trilogy of bear attack books and Stephen Herrero's book on bear attacks are a good starting point, but beware of books that are simply written to capitalize on bear attack stories. The Alaska Game Department is another good resource for reliable information.
Edited to add . . .
Don't shoot a bear in the chest and expect it to stop. Unless its put off by the noise of the gunfire it has little reason to, and it takes time for the brain to run out of oxygen with a heart or a lung shot. By the time you need to shoot he'll have got himself pretty worked up, so guess what he'll be doing between the time you shoot and the time he decides he needs to fall down. Keep that rifle at your shoulder and keep shooting until he's down. If head on, concentrate on the center of the head, the spine, and the shoulder. If you are in a situation where you must shoot a bear that is on someone else, shoot it through the hips, then kill it when it rolls clear.
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Fair enough, I agree you didn't actually say you carried everytime you went out. I think that's all I'm getting at, if you want to it's your choice, but I bet if we dropped in on the average CGN'er out for a day's fishing, or hiking, or canoeing in NWO most of them don't have the shotgun on board (and yes some would, I've been out with people who do, no issues, but not most). There's always alot said on the internet, but in reality most people out there hiking, fishing, canoeing, atving, biking, camping or whatever aren't armed and they're not bear fodder either. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "I just go with the odds on this one", and that when you did experience 'crazy moments with bears' you were able to 'to use avoidance tactics and stay calm...' That sounds like the voice of experience to me and like the reasoning of most people I know from this area.
There's enough misconceptions and misinformation about bears and wildlife in general, and I have had more than my share of discussions with people from down south and else where who are genuinely afraid of bears and it prevents them from getting out and enjoying the great outdoors. And then there are the people who you see chasing bears with their video camera's through the woods, hand feeding them candy bars, not hanging their food packs, or securing their coolers and then blame the bear when they have a problem. These discussions often talk about the technique, tools and training necessary to ward off or neutralize an attacking bear which is fine, it's is good information. The problem is that it's rarely given with the caveat that this would be the exception in an emergency, not the rule. And to be clear I'm talking about Black Bear encounters in Northern Ontario, Polar Bears are not generally found further south than a couple of hundred km South of James Bay and we do not have a Grizzly Bear population in this region. I've spent some time in Northern BC, Alberta and Alaska as well, bear safety when in these areas, involves an entirely different animal and is a whole different discussion and skill set.
I'm simply sharing my opinion based on my own experience, I don't presume to make decisions or choices for anyone else. For those who haven't been out there, and don't have the experience or education I think there are other aspects of bear safety that are far more useful by preventing, avoiding or de-escalating an encounter. The reality is the firearm is a last resort in a scenario which just doesn't happen everyday.
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WYNTERA - I appreciate your advice and experience. When you refer to "avoidance techniques" what are those techniques exactly as I am a bit green when it comes to bears. Do you mean making noise? I'm getting the impression that bears don't want to be around humans any more than I want to be around them. But ... they are omnivores and in my opinion, a pretty big wild animal. If you were in an isolated area, what would you do if you came upon some bears? - Walk the opposite direction, make noise? I also read on some web sites what to do if attacked, and some say to play dead? Also, my understanding is that I would never be able to out-run or out-climb a bear.
I did not say that "I don't carry everytime I go out", I said that I NEVER carry a bear protection weapon... In fact with 99% of the wounded bears that I have tracked, I have carried nothing more than a belt knife... And that is crawling through swamp thickets on hands and knees with a Mag Lite in my teeth.
To the OP... See my earlier post for avoidance techniques... Bears will usually depart quickly when they detect human presence, if they don't, then you move away slowly and loudly... Don't act like "prey." You are correct in that you can't outrun or out climb a bear... And if you should happen to run into a large predatory bear, you don't want to try either... But the chances of running into an aggressive bear that is inclined to prey on a human is highly unlikely.
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Lol - You seem to be determined to play with words here. By 'carry' I was referring to a shot gun for bear defence (which in your previous post you were emphatically not carrying or carrying but not for bear defence
) I also carry a hunting knife in the bush, more of one of several things I don't go out without (compass, light, fire source etc) this is good bush craft more than anything to do with bears. Anyways - I'm not sure our points are all that far apart. It sounds like you have some amazing stories and an awesome skill set that'd would make for some interesting discussions.Is the knife to slit your own throat when you finally catch up with the wounded bear? Everything else you have said makes sense but tracking a wounded bear (essentially) unarmed isn't rational.
OP- read the books by Shelton and Herraro, they are quite informative and will help you understand the odds of something bad happen and the techniques you could try if something does. Nothing but real life experiece is a proper substitute, but just when you think you have a critter figured out you meet one that doesn't fit the mold. Once you have lived 'up north' for awhile it will be interesting to follow up on this thread and let us know what you end up doing.
First, don't run. Ever. If the bear's going about it's business you can go about yours, but keep an eye on it. Don't climb. A bear can climb a tree faster than you can fall out of it. If it's advancing towards you shout ( I use the same tone of voice I use with the dog when it's into something it's not supposed to be) make noise, try to look too big and tough to bother with. If by some rare chance you are attacked by a predatory black bear ( not a sow with cubs) don't play dead... that'll only make things easier for the bear. Most predatory attacks are by adult males, so keep that in mind.
yeah...'cause Ontario bears are all small....
Nice bear, what did he weigh?
Been there but my experence is vastly different. Been chased by a bear on my own property after bagging, screaming etc. Once they are hungry the don't care and see you as FOOD.
I too live in the same town but me thinks you been lucky. I dispached mine with a 12ga slug on my back deck after he smelt food.
I agree with what you have said here and many years ago felt the same way but recentlly my attitude has changed. In the last 2 years I have come under 4 "Attacks" by black bears
and have several fishing/hunting buddies that have simular experiences where they were "pressed" by bears. One time last year we even had a bear try to break into our hunting cabin just outside Geralton with 4 men inside. I feel that they are getting less fearful of man in general because of how many people are out in the woods these days. I bet that even you have had a encounter with one and thought this might be the end. I am no longer taking those chances.
^That sounds like a lousy experience, I'm sorry to hear it. Maybe I'm lucky, (if I am I hope it holds) but I don't think that's it, I've seen lots of bears over the years. They generally don't see people as food, sounds more like you were unlucky and ran into a problem bear. Not really enough details to tell from your post, did the MNR examine for disease? Was it male or female? Was it unhealthy or starving, or an orphaned cub? It could have been a garbage bear or have been fed by humans/campers. Do you have fruit trees, a worm pile, or compost heap that it had been feeding off or attracting it?
There's always lots of variables but sometimes it's just wrong place wrong time. Maybe it was just 'that' bear, every species has them, there are some dogs that are just vicious, and even crazy murderous people, but that's not the norm. I'm betting that you've also come across lots of bears that you a) haven't shot and b) haven't charged. I'm confident with my methods and I'll take my chances, they've worked well for my most of my family for several generations no bear fatalities to date. I'm guessing whatever is in store for me, my tombstone won't read "eaten by a bear".
Ha! good one! maybe me and back luck, but yes fruit trees in yard. They love them. try to keep them cleaned off to prevent them from coming around but every year they bust the crap out of them. That is where the last one chased me back into the house as I tried to scare it off. They just seem like they are not scared as they use to be. As for the bear I got, it was roaming the area for a week. Called OPP and they Officer said that there was nothing he could do but told me and I quote" I cannot tell you to shoot it but if its a nuicence bear I know what I would do"
yeah...'cause Ontario bears are all small....
It looks like this bear swallowed a hand-grenade.
