Beretta introduces the M9A3, successor to the M9

Well, once ya figure that they are so heavily invested and entrenched with the M9, it's pretty much a no-brainer as to what they're gonna do. They will have existing stockpiles of spare parts, the armourers know them inside out, as do the people carrying them. That is a lot of momentum and to slam on the brakes and go to something else would be a massive undertaking. For now I think it's 9mm/Beretta or nothing, just as it's 5.56/M16 or nothin' with rifles. Factors totally unrelated to performance are at work here. (Plus, who knows what is going on behind closed doors and who is blowing who for cash and prizes).

Personally I think that they should follow the civvies on pistols and adopt the Glock or some other plastic gun - assuming they have the funds and the flexibility to do so. I personally hate Glocks (and admit that is complete personal bias) - but in a military application they are probably the way to go. You want cheap, robustness, safety and user friendliness and IMO - the Glock beats the M9 on all counts.
 
TDC said:
Care to debate what I posted? You seem to take issue with me and fail to address what I post.

I dismiss what I see and know as bs marketing gimmicks based on what I know and what I've learned through my training. I'm all ears if you have something to add that I've missed.

Tdc
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What is there to debate? You take the "my way is the only way cuz I've had tactical training n stuff" approach in every thread, dismiss anything that falls outside of your personal field of use, coming off as extremely condescending in the process, and wonder why folks think you're a blowhard and a jerk.

What is gimmicky and fluff marketing about providing a feature that I, and evidently others, use?

Here's a hint - my "weak hand" is nowhere near the gun when I shoot. If a gun has controls that make it more convenient for single left handed use I will give it a go. No, ambi friendly ergonomics won't make me keep a pistol that I otherwise don't like, and it won't always be a deal breaker for ones that have not got it. I appreciate them when I find them, and I make use of them.

And you call that irrelevant because you've had training in what, for you, is the one true way to shoot handguns.

That's just a different sort of Luddite attitude, and there is no debating possible with a closed mind; simply argument.

Your points have been replied to already, by others, and you don't care. I'm out. You're not worth an infraction.
 
TDC said:
I don't disagree that one can activate the release via their index finger or that it may even be a more positive force. The logic is that until recently all of us have been using guns with left side releases. Relearning on a right side release is unnecessary and not the norm as most guns will still be left release.

I personally don't use my thumb to release the magazine. Glocks are designed to be "inaccessible" with the shooting hand abd I have short digits. I prefer to use the thumb of my support hand as its more positive and places my left hand in position to sweep the mag well to ensure the mag dropped free.

Reversible mag releases are as useful as "second strike" capability on a pistol. They're marketing gimmicks.

Tdc
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So let me get this straight. The reason you use the left side release is because until recently (Last 20 years) reverseable mag releases were not available and you are unable to relearn a simple task of pressing your trigger finger against the mag release even though it has the potential to be faster. Based upon that logic you conclude for the rest of us, the reverseable mag release is really unnecessary and is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Amazing!

You do know that 40% of our population is left handed. Are you aware manufacturers even make left handed scissors? I suspect a lot of your thinking would be different if you were schooled on a handgun other than a Glock which until, I beieve, the 4th Gen came along had not caught up with the rest of the industry in providing the reverseable mag release on their guns. For someone with stubby fingers, I would have thought you would have been all over the reverseable feature. Once you get used to using your trigger finger the gun never shifts in your hand, can always being pointed down range and with practice can provide immediate target acquisition. Even for a rookie like me it is faster. For someone with your talent it would be significantly faster.

Take Care

Bob
 
You need to use 2 hands to remove an empty Glock mag anyway when the slide is open....weighs next to nothing so it doesn't exactly rocket out on it's own lol
 
OldDirtyGatMasta said:
Two-tone baby poop brown, accented with black controls. How you intend to operate these days with a non poop coloured pistol is beyong me. ;)
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Can you imagine if we ever get past the Middle East and have another jungle engagement. Based on this pistol the next iteration will be coloured Green. No wonder Vietnam was a loss. The pistols in use were coloured Black or Blue.

Take Care

Bob
 
mebiuspower said:
Very groundbreaking!!! This is an industry game changer for sure!!!
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Yeah, sure.

Anyway, for fans of the Beretta 92 this is big news. Bigger even than Wilson's release of their Brig Tac version. Groundbreaking or not, this is the gun that 92 enthusiasts have been asking for since the release of the Elite's.

The Elite's major flaw is it's Brig slide, too heavy and too wide. Holsters are a pain to find and recoil control is reduced with the heavier slide.
 
Canuck44 said:
So let me get this straight. The reason you use the left side release is because until recently (Last 20 years) reverseable mag releases were not available and you are unable to relearn a simple task of pressing your trigger finger against the mag release even though it has the potential to be faster. Based upon that logic you conclude for the rest of us, the reverseable mag release is really unnecessary and is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Amazing!

You do know that 40% of our population is left handed. Are you aware manufacturers even make left handed scissors? I suspect a lot of your thinking would be different if you were schooled on a handgun other than a Glock which until, I beieve, the 4th Gen came along had not caught up with the rest of the industry in providing the reverseable mag release on their guns. For someone with stubby fingers, I would have thought you would have been all over the reverseable feature. Once you get used to using your trigger finger the gun never shifts in your hand, can always being pointed down range and with practice can provide immediate target acquisition. Even for a rookie like me it is faster. For someone with your talent it would be significantly faster.

Take Care

Bob
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40% left handed?? Where did you get that. I'm a leftie and was always under the impression that the percentage was around 10-11%.:confused:
 
Left-Handed-Facts-and-Stat1.png
 
Canuck44 said:
So let me get this straight. The reason you use the left side release is because until recently (Last 20 years) reverseable mag releases were not available and you are unable to relearn a simple task of pressing your trigger finger against the mag release even though it has the potential to be faster. Based upon that logic you conclude for the rest of us, the reverseable mag release is really unnecessary and is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Amazing!

You do know that 40% of our population is left handed. Are you aware manufacturers even make left handed scissors? I suspect a lot of your thinking would be different if you were schooled on a handgun other than a Glock which until, I beieve, the 4th Gen came along had not caught up with the rest of the industry in providing the reverseable mag release on their guns. For someone with stubby fingers, I would have thought you would have been all over the reverseable feature. Once you get used to using your trigger finger the gun never shifts in your hand, can always being pointed down range and with practice can provide immediate target acquisition. Even for a rookie like me it is faster. For someone with your talent it would be significantly faster.

Take Care

Bob
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Let me get this straight, you seem to struggle with comprehension and its a chronic issue.

The VAST VAST majority of guns are setup with a left side release, whether they be reversible or not they're left side release. Having shot a left side release pistol for oh, the better part of 20 years and training with a left side release, why would I want to switch it only to relearn all over again for a PERCEIVED gain in speed?? You seem awfully focused on one very small portion of shooting, that being the reload. I guess if your goal is to beat the clock then time is critical. Then again, if you're reloading and doing it often its probably because you aren't making hits. I personally subscribe to focusing on making hits over increasing my reload speed to miss, you may disagree. I shoot and reload in a timely fashion as it is. There is no appreciable gain to relearning a trigger finger release, and should you ever have to use another pistol you may not have the option of switching it. I'm a fan of keeping my manual of arms simple and universal and as above, focus on making hits over shaving pointless tenths of a second off administrative actions like reloading. Making hits faster is what wins a match or a gunfight, not the fastest reload.

I use and prefer left side release for the following reasons, pay close attention..

MOST guns on the planet are setup with left side release. Consistency goes a long way.

Activating the release with my support(left) thumb is more positive and puts my hand in position to sweep the mag well should a magazine fail to drop free. It also does not effect your firing grip like shifting the gun does when using your primary thumb.

Oh, and check your stats, there are far fewer lefties than you seem to believe..

TDC
 
M
TDC said:
Let me get this straight, you seem to struggle with comprehension and its a chronic issue.

The VAST VAST majority of guns are setup with a left side release, whether they be reversible or not they're left side release. Having shot a left side release pistol for oh, the better part of 20 years and training with a left side release, why would I want to switch it only to relearn all over again for a PERCEIVED gain in speed?? You seem awfully focused on one very small portion of shooting, that being the reload. I guess if your goal is to beat the clock then time is critical. Then again, if you're reloading and doing it often its probably because you aren't making hits. I personally subscribe to focusing on making hits over increasing my reload speed to miss, you may disagree. I shoot and reload in a timely fashion as it is. There is no appreciable gain to relearning a trigger finger release, and should you ever have to use another pistol you may not have the option of switching it. I'm a fan of keeping my manual of arms simple and universal and as above, focus on making hits over shaving pointless tenths of a second off administrative actions like reloading. Making hits faster is what wins a match or a gunfight, not the fastest reload.

I use and prefer left side release for the following reasons, pay close attention..

MOST guns on the planet are setup with left side release. Consistency goes a long way.

Activating the release with my support(left) thumb is more positive and puts my hand in position to sweep the mag well should a magazine fail to drop free. It also does not effect your firing grip like shifting the gun does when using your primary thumb.

Oh, and check your stats, there are far fewer lefties than you seem to believe..

TDC
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Well, if everyone else is doing it, then it must be the right way and there's no room for improvement. Do you guys remember when the earth was flat? Good times.
 
Yup 15% seem to be lefties. That said TDC if you can`t learn to hit the mag release with your finger in less than five minutes you are two slow to own a firearm cuz you will never learn how to load one. Like really we aren`t carving ice statues here. Why did Glock finally make the change ...oh I know marketing. They should really put you on their payroll.

Here are your reasons you gave for using your left hand release:

1. MOST guns on the planet are setup with left side release. Consistency goes a long way.

JMB started it and most followed suit. He was left handed. Most of us don`t shoot every gun on the planet and you most certainly don`t so your 1st reason is a red herring or hot air, you choose.

2. Activating the release with my support(left) thumb is more positive and puts my hand in position to sweep the mag well should a magazine fail to drop free. It also does not effect your firing grip like shifting the gun does when using your primary thumb.

To use your typical responses, what is your proof using the left thumb is more positive. How can it be given the mag release is depressed or it isn`t. My left hand is already holding the new mag while you are waiting to see if your Glock mag will fall freely. I don`t shoot Glocks but if my mag doesn`t eject it is no great trick to hook the mag free while holding a fresh mag. I can`t recall it ever happening to me using my M&P`s. I have one CZ mag that is sticky and it is marked as a Barney mag for topping up the gun. Never had an issue with my 1911 mags dropping freely either. Does it happen often with Glocks.

TDC most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time. Changing from one type of release to another does not require a year of night school. There is nothing projected about the time difference, I have taken the time to clock my reloads and I am faster using the right hand mag release. Now I know shooting the games is not all that important to you as you are an Operator in training but for me I need to squeak every bit of savings I can when shooting stages because God knows I have enough fails in other areas. To say, as you do, that reverseable mag releases are just a gimmick is just stupid. Just because YOU don`t think they are needed doesn`t make it so.

Whether it is 15% or 40% it really doesn`t matter, gun companies do what they can to garner and cater to the largest consumer audience as possible which would include lefties. Too, I would not be surprised to learn some Armed Forces require full ambi controls on their guns. Maybe they do and maybe they don`t but if they do, a smart company would cater to their needs. Apparently they are because most of the most popular semi autos come with reverseable mag releases these days.

As someone else said their is no reason to attempt to project a different opinion than yours. You only deal in absolutes and having been in training since your early teens there is little knowledge you have yet to distill from the Operators you obviously hang with. Lucky them.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 said:
Yup 15% seem to be lefties. That said TDC if you can`t learn to hit the mag release with your finger in less than five minutes you are two slow to own a firearm cuz you will never learn how to load one. Like really we aren`t carving ice statues here. Why did Glock finally make the change ...oh I know marketing. They should really put you on their payroll.

Its not about learning, its about rationalizing why you would waste the time to both swap the release learn it in the first place? There is no difficulty in running the release with either thumb, nor is their difficulty in using your index finger as a lefty assuming a left release. The so called speed advantage isn't worth the effort to publish. I do compete but its not my primary concern. Honestly, I don't give two f**ks what gamers do to shave time. Firearms are lethal tools designed for killing, especially so with SERVICE PISTOLS(and rifles). What matters is what keeps people alive, and focusing on the minutiae of a reload as some disillusioned belief that it will somehow improve either survivability or scores for that matter is a retarded rationale.

Glock offers reversible mag releases on their pistols(ahead of Beretta I might add, you know, the oldest firearms manufacturer in the world who is often the last to the party) as a marketing plan to compete with the other companies. Its yet another option and "feature" for the uneducated and untrained firearms owner, which is safely estimated to be in the high 90% region. Like most products out there, if you put enough BS marketing behind it and target market the lowest common denominator you'll sell a boat load.

Here are your reasons you gave for using your left hand release:

1. MOST guns on the planet are setup with left side release. Consistency goes a long way.

JMB started it and most followed suit. He was left handed. Most of us don`t shoot every gun on the planet and you most certainly don`t so your 1st reason is a red herring or hot air, you choose.

Just because I prefer to focus on one style/brand of firearm does not mean I do not engage in the use of and familiarization of others. I've shot pretty well everything there is to own out there, save for every specific calibre and "trim" options. Again, my concern isn't gaming or range plinking. Shooting is a martial skill and some people understand that. With that in mind there isn't any logical reason to swap the release.

2. Activating the release with my support(left) thumb is more positive and puts my hand in position to sweep the mag well should a magazine fail to drop free. It also does not effect your firing grip like shifting the gun does when using your primary thumb.

To use your typical responses, what is your proof using the left thumb is more positive. How can it be given the mag release is depressed or it isn`t. My left hand is already holding the new mag while you are waiting to see if your Glock mag will fall freely. I don`t shoot Glocks but if my mag doesn`t eject it is no great trick to hook the mag free while holding a fresh mag. I can`t recall it ever happening to me using my M&P`s. I have one CZ mag that is sticky and it is marked as a Barney mag for topping up the gun. Never had an issue with my 1911 mags dropping freely either. Does it happen often with Glocks.

Well Bob your lack of training and blind thought processes have once again illuminated your lack of knowledge. For starters when you drive your support thumb(again assuming right handed shooter with left release) into the mag release via the use of your ARM, SHOULDER, and CHEST and all the muscles associated, its safe to say that more POSITIVE force is both available and being exerted on the release inline with its plain of travel as opposed to using your primary thumb alone. You agree? You follow me so far? This works for everyone, the strong, the old, the young, the weak, the wounded too. You can use another digit of your support hand if you wish or need to.

Second... You may always be shooting from a position where gravity acts from the top of the pistol to the bottom of the pistol, that is "upright" but in the real world that isn't always the case. If you're lying on your side and need to reload, the magazine usually wont drop free as its direction of travel and that of gravity are not congruent(that means the same in case you were struggling with the word congruent). Remember Bob, I subscribe to the simplest manual of arms that works with the greatest number of pistols(or rifle or shotguns) with the most predictable and reliable results under the most varying of circumstances/situations.

Sweeping the mag well ensures the depleted magazine has indeed left the scene. Fumbling with two magazines as you describe/do is whats referred to as a tactical reload(I hate the word tactical) or a reload with retention. To do so is not a time critical event and should not be used where time is limited, but I'm sure you knew that. If you're doing a slide lock or emergency reload then you need to feed that pistol ASAP as it is indeed a time critical event. Sure you may shave a tenth of a second by swapping your release. Sure you may even shave another tenth-quarter second by reaching for the fresh magazine simultaneously. But tell me Bob, how much time are you going to waste when you try to slam that fresh magazine into an already occupied magazine well? What do you think the odds of you reinserting that partial/depleted magazine when you're handling two magazines(and with a poor grip I might add). I know what you're gonna say, "but I can see that the magazine didn't drop free, so I will simply clear it while holding the fresh magazine, no big deal." How can you see the stuck magazine, its dark?? How well do you think your reload is going to go when you've compromised your grip on that fresh magazine? And what are you going to do with the partial/depleted magazine? Are you going to toss it on the ground(presuming its empty) or stow it? How much time has that taken to accomplish? What are the chances you drop both magazines, and how much time do you think that will take to rectify? You wouldn't take your eyes off the threat to retrieve that magazine would you?

A simplified manual of arms reduces or eliminates the potential for a bad situation to turn into a cluster f**k. Here's some information for you. A study was done regarding the time taken to make decisions based on the number of possible actions available. Every time you add a possible action to a situation you DOUBLE the time it takes to mentally decide which action to take. Your answer of simply clearing the partial/depleted magazine while holding the fresh one has now added time two fold to your process. First off, your "standard" reload is now a "stop, sh*t, I need to remove the spent mag first" situation which is the second option as the first was to simply insert the fresh mag and drive on. So your time has already doubled. Then, because you're no longer doing your "standard reload" you need to decide which magazine is to be dumped and which is to be kept, doubled your time again. Then, you need to decide what to do with said magazine, keep it or dump it. Lets not forget that this doubling of your time is taking place while you stand exposed to the threat(remember you said your mags fall free, so you must be standing upright) in low light conditions.

Ok ok, you're an inexperienced shooter with issues(your words) who plinks at the range. So you're at the range on a sunny day and only shooting paper. The increased mental work load still hasn't changed, you still have additional problems to process through your OODA loop which are only adding time to your reload. In addition to these additional problems(the occupied mag well and deciding what to do with the mag once its removed) you're introducing the potential for more problems/mistakes like reinserting that partial/depleted magazine, dropping both mags or the fresh one. The variations in outcomes only grow as you add additional steps/mistakes.[/B]

Third... When I use my support side thumb I am doing so as I bring the pistol back to what's called "ready gun" or "compressed ready" position. This is where your elbows touch your rib cage, your pistol is kept up in your line of sight or close to, the "work space" as its so popularly referred to. When the gun is retracted is when I depress the release and sweep the mag well. When my right elbow reaches my rib cage the gun gets oriented inboard, that is magazine well canted towards my left side. At the same time, my left hand continues rearward and follows my body contour around to the spare magazines, sweeping any cover garments out of the way in the process. Once a fresh magazine is retrieved the process is reversed until my left elbow touches my rib cage. With both elbows touching ribs your hands must meet when directed towards each other. This greatly aids in getting the magazine to the gun, which is also aided by your eyes indexing the mag well until the fresh magazine is started into the gun. A lot of detail that isn't necessary to the point I'm trying to make which is this.

Using my support thumb to activate the mag release does not detract from sound tactics with regards to a reload. Keeping the gun in close keeps it from being snatched, it also reduces your profile while making the reload easier and more consistent each and every time. As mentioned above your support thumb and all the muscles involved when using it provide far more positive and direct force to the mag release than any digit accessing the mag release from a perpendicular state ever could.

TDC most of us can walk and chew gum at the same time. Changing from one type of release to another does not require a year of night school. There is nothing projected about the time difference, I have taken the time to clock my reloads and I am faster using the right hand mag release. Now I know shooting the games is not all that important to you as you are an Operator in training but for me I need to squeak every bit of savings I can when shooting stages because God knows I have enough fails in other areas. To say, as you do, that reverseable mag releases are just a gimmick is just stupid. Just because YOU don`t think they are needed doesn`t make it so.

I've been told it takes between 2500-7000 repetitions for an action to become "second nature" or "instinctive". Tell me Bob, how long do you think that would take for the average shooter? Don't forget that's PERFECT repetitions. Sounds like a lot of effort for a negligible reduction in time for an administrative task. Do you think you'd be better off investing that time into marksmanship or reloading the gun? Say you save 1 second on your reloads(which is a huge stretch! as a good reload shouldn't take much more than a second or two and you aren't halving your time by swapping the mag release) but drop just one shot every stage(being generous as you admit to having other issues). That's anywhere from 1-10 seconds added to your time per stage, plus the extra time to reload if you're shooting to correct your misses. Call me crazy but I don't see the "gain" in relearning a new method that is neither necessary nor proven beneficial. Perhaps a more focused effort on marksmanship would pay a higher dividend?

Whether it is 15% or 40% it really doesn`t matter, gun companies do what they can to garner and cater to the largest consumer audience as possible which would include lefties. Too, I would not be surprised to learn some Armed Forces require full ambi controls on their guns. Maybe they do and maybe they don`t but if they do, a smart company would cater to their needs. Apparently they are because most of the most popular semi autos come with reverseable mag releases these days.

The numbers do matter Bob, as you can't seem to do a little online research to provide the facts. The percentage of left handed shooters is small, and they all have been trained with left side mag releases and are more than comfortable with it. The right handed shooters also have been using left side releases and are comfortable with it. Having the option to swap is great, but I know of no one who has done it, be they left or right handed.

As someone else said their is no reason to attempt to project a different opinion than yours. You only deal in absolutes and having been in training since your early teens there is little knowledge you have yet to distill from the Operators you obviously hang with. Lucky them.

Mine is not opinion Bob, its facts, your posts are opinions. As for the operator comments, spare me the laughter. I simply apply myself and attend some courses to further my knowledge and skill level. What is it that you do or have done that makes your opinion so tangible and/or valuable??? Stick to the square range Bob, as thinking outside the box isn't your strong suit..


Take Care

Bob
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I'm in the bold, try and stay focused.

TDC
 
Lexthedestroyer said:
M

Well, if everyone else is doing it, then it must be the right way and there's no room for improvement. Do you guys remember when the earth was flat? Good times.
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What's to improve? A left side release works just fine, try focusing on marksmanship instead of administrative tasks it will serve you better.

TDC
 
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