Best AR in .308 for $2000?
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I have one of those. Just waiting for one part to complete my build. Fireball has pictures of his up. Mine is all black though as I wanted to stick with the exact model. It's true Armalite and SASS including the gas block.
. Has taken me a few years to get all the pieces together. As they were very hard to import. One of the other issues with getting the Armalite AR10 rifles are the barrels. They are marked 7.62 which some days seems to make them harder to import. Another way to go was when the LMT MWS was a smoking deal. I bought one on the EE NIB for less than new at the time with a free 20" SS 5R 1:11.25 barrel. But... I couldn't get that today for anywhere near that. Otherwise I'd recommend that rifle. You can change out the barrel yourself in about 2 minutes. Have a 16 CL 1:10 barrel and the Stainless one.
Morpheus has one of the AR10(t) DND versions for sale but it's a package deal. I have two of those rifles. Bought one from Wolverine back a ways (right place right time), bought the second one off the EE just recently. I've bought two off the EE in total for excellent prices (Fireball has one of them). If it doesn't say KAC, LMT, etc most people don't seem to know what it is. As a result getting a piece of Canadian history that shoots with the best was fairly inexpensive for a 308 AR.
They have a 24" SS 1:11.25 twist Lothar-Walther match barrel with black ceramic coating. Also threaded. Feed them 168 federal or 175 SMK reloads and you're laughing. Gives my 5R milspec a run for the money although the 5R usually just edges them out. The DPMS while not as well built does shoot very well. That 24" heavy contour SS 1:10 twist barrel does it's job. The only thing is I found it doesn't like the same ammo as my other tactical precision rifles. IE 5R milspec bolt, Armalite DND rifles. But... put 167 lapua in it and it's a true target rifle. It's the true target rifle of the bunch. Not as cool but it's well suited for it's purpose.
For those not as familiar with the AR10/308AR rifles. There are pretty much two categories with a few crossing between the two. You can usually divide them by piston/DI and CL/SS barrel.
Patrol rifle:
-Piston with CL barrel.
-DI with CL barrel (Often not free floated barrel but may be)
-Some piston systems with SS barrel
Precision rifle:
-DI with SS barrel
-Some pistons with SS barrel
The piston system does rob ultimate accuracy. Fine for a DM rifle but for ultimate accuracy you have more potential with DI based systems.
For patrol rifles: Expect same accuracy as a regular AR15. 1.5-3 moa would be my guess.
-Sig 716 (short stroke piston system)
-New Ruger SR762
-DPMs oracle
-Armalite with CL barrels
More accurate and higher end patrol rifles: Expect around 1 to 1.5 moa with match ammo. A higher quality and heavier contour CL barrel will get you to that 1 moa mark (hopefully).
-PWS with SS barrel (uses long stroke piston)
-HK mr308 uses short stroke system, hammer forged heavy barrel
-LMT MWS with the CL barrel choice (DI, but has a hammer forged CL barrel)
Target rifles: Expect .5 to 1 moa with match grade ammo. sub 1 moa is a given.
-Armalite 10(T), Super SASS, Canadian 10(t) DND model. (old type used modified M14 mags, new version uses original Armalite mags ie SR25, DPMS mags)
-Noveske (based off AR10 system)
-DPMS LR308 model
-KAC models with SS barrel
-RRA LAR8 (Uses FAL mags)
-LMT MWS with SS barrel (These are Mike rock 5R rifled barrels).
-POF has a piston system with match SS barrel that from what I've read is in the precision rifle category. But.. I've heard some reliability issues and frankly I'm not a fan of the look. I still believe the piston system for a DM/target rifle is a big negative.
There are others but those are the rough groupings. Bottom line look at what makes an accurate rifle. The AR platform has success with accuracy because it follows most of the basic accurate rifle premises. Piston systems cause harmonics on barrels. Many makes including HK will go with a heavier contour barrel and or SS match barrel to try and eliminate this. But.. put that same barell on a DI rifle and you would get even better accuracy.
The four main things for the AR that will determine accuracy. 1) Ammo, 2) trigger, 3) gas system (DI or piston), 4) the barrel and is it free floated
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The beauty of the AR10 style is the accuracy potential. Most are setup for DM or target use. IE SS match barrels. With the extra weight, size and cost of 308 ammo most have been in the target or DM style. It's only fairly recently that the patrol rifle style has become so popular in the 308 AR. The OP also said he already has a Sig 716 which is a patrol style piston AR rifle. So precision target would seem to be what is being asked.
For target use: Both of these have SS 24" match barrels on them. Both are very accurate.
Left DPMS LR308, Right Armalite AR10(t) DND model (Canadian military version).
The DPMS LR308 is nice....I like it.
I looked at a project with one a few years ago. But... I kept coming across other stuff that was one of those deals I couldn't pass up. Saw one for $1000 new, and there was a DPMS LR308 24" SS barrel in the EE. Took a lot of willpower not to go for it. But just bought a LMT MWS with both barrels which was also a heck of a deal as it turns out with price increases it really turned into an exceptional buy.
All of the AR10 based rifles will take the add on stuff such as Magpul stocks (including PRS for AR10), grips etc. With the Miad grip you need the AR10 wedge for some of them. It's about a $6 part. Triggers are also AR15 so you can slap in your match triggers.
A couple of things have tarnished the name of the Armalite AR10. The first is the mag system. The AR10 system has the betamax, or for newer folks the HD DVD format reputation. IE they lost to VHS or Blu ray. The original AR10 mag format often referred to as SR25 mags or DPMS style have won out in popularity. Pmag guaranteed it. The Gen1 AR10 mags also had some reliability issues. However I will add a couple of things here. They are based off M14 mags so you will never have a problem being able to get them. That was the idea for Armalite as they were designing this during the first run of the Assault rifle bans. Also the current ones are Gen2 mags. They are significantly better and manufactured as an actual product rather than more of a conversion. I actually really like the Gen2 ones. The Gen1s are clunky and crap in comparison. The Gen2 ones look better than the DPMS mags and not far off the KAC mags in terms of quality.
Also cost was a factor along with availability. When the LMT rifles came out they were the same price as an AR10 target model. It was an easy choice. LMT. Now prices are up on the LMT, prices are down on the Armalite.
The Armalite is essentially a bigger, heavier built AR15. It's not as fancy as a lot of the other options. It uses 7175-t73 Aluminum (forged) for the upper and lower. It's nothing fancy. It's simply a well built AR15. Quality level on mine are excellent. But it doesn't have the billet of the fancier looking stuff, or the ambi functions now starting to be common place. Bottom line though they shoot and are decent.
I picked this one up during the summer off the EE. It was in the under 2K range. AR10(t) DND model (Upper was camoed which was consistent with the DND AR10's that were for sale from Wolverine later on, ie what I call bring backs). Unknown round count. Came with 4 AR10 mags (Generation 2), and an ATR muzzle brake. A2 furniture in OD green. 24" SS ceramic coated barrel and NM trigger (2 stage match).
Before:
After: Yes I know my camera sucks. Sorry. Camera or AR10 rifles. It's not a hard choice.
Lots of elbow grease and acetone to get rid of the camo. still have to take the handguard off to clean up underneath. But under that camo was a very clean rifle. After cleaning out the barrel (very very dirty) the barrel looked good too. The charging handle is very tight and it seems like some wear on the finish for the bolt and charging handle. I suspect.... the A2 furniture ie the stock is in fact AR15 not AR10 which would compress the buffer spring more as the internal spring dimensions are shorter in the AR15 version. I have to verify this. Regardless the stock and grip will be changed to a FDE PRS and Miad. But this was a smoking deal. It sat on the EE for a long time guys. Same with that LMT I bought.
Granted the LMT turned out to be a better buy than I even originally thought.These AR10 rifles have been in the sandbox as well. Not just KAC or now LMT. Our guys were using them. Wolverine supplied them to the Canadian forces.
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Nope. you're right it doesn't take Pmags. But it's a chrome lined non free float barreled version. Same sort of accuracy as your Sig. Also won't have the match trigger.
Recommend as target rifle: Only I prefer black furniture:
1) Armalite 10 T Semi-Auto .308 Win 20" (Note: wolverine sells this for $2000 when in stock)
This one is a very nice tactical precision rifle. But also no pmags.
2) Armalite AR-10 SASS .308 Winchester 20" (1) 10-rnd. & (1) 20-rnd Synthetic Stock Black
AR-10SUPER SASS ™ - .308 WIN.
•Semi-auto sniper system •Foward assist •20" Triple- lapped stainless steel cermaic-coated match barrel •National Match trigger •Forged flattop upper receiver •Gas block front sight base •Flash suppressor •Adjustable buttstock •Selectable gas valve supplies appropriate gas energy when firing in suppressed mode •Wt.: 9.4 lbs. •Includes: (1) 10-rnd. & (1) 20-rnd. magazine, owners manual & Lifetime Warranty
I agree about the black furniture. No 20" versions in black listed for irunguns and Wolverine has been out for a while now.
Personally I'd probably try to find a way to make the Super SASS happen. It's their flagship right now. It's not a LMT or a KAC but it sure offers a lot for the price in comparison. A LMT for example with SS barrel will run you a minimum of 4K here in Canada. More if you want the 20" barrel as you have to guy the 16" CL version first. KAC, that will run you about 4.5K start for one with A2 furniture. Their top of the line will be about 6.25K. When you add up the extra options the Super SASS comes with the extra price isn't unreasonable. You can build one for cheaper but that takes a lot of time, knowing the right people and some luck. It's worth it to just get it brought in if they are able to export it to Canada. Exporting Armalites to Canada has been an issue due to their 7.62 markings and barrels. But as we know that changes yearly.
It is a lot of money. The target version isn't as "tactical" but they are excellent for target shooting and the lowest price point for a quality firearm. I'd be patient and get exactly what you want. Save more for the tactical DM rifle if that's what you want or wait for the target model you want. Either way, don't settle. Get exactly the rifle you want. Also scan the EE a lot. 308AR rifles aren't anywhere near as popular as the AR15. You can often find some good deals on them.
Of course there is the one last wrinkle in the decision process. The DPMS models. I will say again I prefer my Armalite over my DPMS. But the price point.... Just remember to add a match trigger as the stock one is crap at least on the base models and even their target LR308 (Which is ridiculous). But 6061 aluminum, a raised rail on the upper for the LR308 which does make mounting larger optics easier than a monlithic rail but it still goes towards the commercial aspect I said earlier. Nice rifle, just not as nice.
$1140. Kills the R25 idea.
http://www.irunguns.com/product.dpms-panther-lr-308-semi-auto-308-win-24-191-synthetic-stk-black
There is also the DPMS LRT SASS. But again 6061 lower, 18" SS barrel (I prefer 20 to 24" for target) and that palm shelf grip. I bought one for my LR308 and I prefer the magpul Miad. I found the PSG1 style grip wasn't comfortable with the LR308. The magpul is much nicer.
Ultimately all of these rifles I've mentioned will shoot very well. Which one to pick? Well I'm the worst at that. 5 AR308 rifles later...
Look forward to see what you decide on and get. Make sure to post pictures.
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MRSP from Armalite is $3100. They sell for around $2800 at some places in the States. But... irunguns now waves the export fees so it's less than what you'd pay if you bought from one of the other US stores and then paid to have it exported to Canada. You'll have to factor in shipping etc to find out what the full cost will be. But from what I'm seeing yes it's a decent price when you factor in how hard it is to find one in Canada, the export process etc. Could you find it for less in the States? Yes. In Canada if it were available it would be more. It seems fair. Not a smoking deal but definitely decent.
The question is, is the SASS what you want? No it won't outshoot the target version. The SASS comes ready to go (except for needing the Miad pistol grip) and has some neat features, looks cool etc. But it won't outshoot the target model. Do you "need" stuff like the adjustable gas block? Nope. First off we can't use supressors here, second even then it's not really needed. It's a nice option though. But you do pay for it. The actual part when I built mine was around $500 for that gas block. A rifle without it will do just fine. Do you need a railed handguard? Not for target shooting. Also the SASS handguard is on the thick side. I like it, but it's not the best out there. It does look cool though. Flash hider and ceramic coating the SS barrel? Again looks cool.
The only thing is this rifle will be available in a model that uses Pmags. I don't think the one on irunguns is the AR10A model. I think it's an AR10B. So Armalite mags. The SASS is one of the models that is offered with the Pmag version.
You have to decide if you want a military accuracy rifle ie DM style that looks really cool and shoots very well, or if you want a straight out target rifle. Straight out target rifle it's between the Armalite and the DPMS. Want tacticool as well then best price for options is that SASS. Next jump up is the LMT and then KAC for accurate military style rifles.
Lots of good reviews out there. Make sure to do your homework.
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I am following your discussion closely, i mail Jason @ Irun and he told me he would keep one till my RPAL show up but i did not buy it ...Yet, they have 4 in stock, but there is so many choices, very complicated for a non-connaissor of AR rifles, i like the KAC sr-25 to and is it worth to go only with the AR-10 T...
I think buying one is a long due process... JP.
H.K.Glock 007
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Is the HK MR 308/7.62/417 a dog in this fight?
Yes. It might be a dog in its own league though. Check out G28 to understand the the MR308.
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Winnipeg MB
Ruger 762?
Not really. It's the creme of the crop for piston AR308 rifles and has decent accuracy. But it's pretty much a patrol rifle that crosses into the DM rifle. I handled one and it wasn't for me. I didn't like the balance, the front handguard, the too upright pistol grip and the price. Your mileage may vary. That being said HK quality and while not a fanboy I have to agree that HK does instill that sense of quality. But also not the same rifle as the military version. The Sig 716 is pretty much the value version and frankly a better buy. Also for the HK money I would want ambi controls like the LMT or full ambi like the KAC. The Sig716 has an ambi mag release like the LMT. It's a very nice rifle. But not a target rifle. You can target shoot with it, but that $2000 DPMS LR308 will put it to shame accuracy wise. The SASS will also outshoot it easily. In the US it's HK417 or the FN SCAR comparisons. It's that type of rifle. A very good one too for what it was designed for. the MR308 has a barrel for accuracy. Not CL. But not true match either. Still it will no doubt help mitigate the short stroke piston system. I would guess 1 moa to 1.5 would be realistic with 5 round groups. I've read they are rated sub 1.5 moa 10 round groups at 100 metres. So yes very good, but not target rifle good. But.. I haven't shot one so I can't say from personal experience.
Ruger 762,
Sig 716,
HK mr308,
PWS MK216 etc are all in that Patrol rifle/DM rifle category.
I don't personally do much plinking in 308 and if I were to do so I'd grab my RFB and put 145 MFS ammo in it. Accuracy wise I could get close, and shooting a bullpup off hand is easier. The loss in actually accuracy is made up by the ease of shooting off hand with the bullpup. Quality isn't in the same league as the others but.. it's not restricted and is fun for that type of shooting. I use my AR10 rifles for DM/Target style shooting. I can if I want put the CL barrel on my LMT and use that if I wanted to for course shooting, plinking etc. But... with the AR10 it's the accuracy that interests me. Your interests may vary.
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