Best buy in Milsurp???

French rifles are quite interesting designs. It is arrogant American and English writers with nothing better to do than slag the French without justification.

For starters, France invented widely issued semi-automatic rifles in the early part of WWI, and only quit when it was easier for a nation losing tens upon tens of thousands of men every month, to issue fast to produce bolt actions. John Garand stole most of their good ideas (and added a few dumb ones of his own) for the M1. They continued with good bolt actions throughout the Depression, until research and science recommended semi-auto rifles just as the Germans were invading.

The MAS1940 led to the MAS1944, 1949 and 1949/56. These are remarkably simple and ingenious rifles. Their arsenals were up and running, issuing MAS1944's before VEDay. Short production runs, tight inspection controls and a quick feedback cycle for product innovation. No one can say that about the Garand, No.4 or Mauser.

The supply of 7.5MAS ammo is problematic. Reloading it is a bit more awkward than 7.62x51 NATO, but not by much. And for clarity, that cartridge was designed in 1929 and NATO didn't improve on it by very much nearly 30 years later.
 
The only 'awkward' part of reloading the 7.5 MAS is finding brass - it's a fine round. The rifles are not the most graceful looking tho....;)
My MAS 49 shot nicely and as accurate as any other semi I handled. Can't say the 36 or 36/51 turned my crank.
 
Another vote for K31s. The prices are resonable (although the rifles are getting more scarce now). GP11 ammo still exists in good supply and should be available for at least another decade and is priced right.
 
cie said:
Another vote for K31s. The prices are resonable (although the rifles are getting more scarce now). GP11 ammo still exists in good supply and should be available for at least another decade and is priced right.
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I agree with your choice of the K 31, have two nice ones myself.
another good choice are export mausers, like Brasilian or Argentinian, this are Mauser Rifles at their best.

BTW where do you get GP 11 ammo? and in great supply...
I thaught it's all gone.
Please let us know.
 
Best buy...

Papaclaude said:
A friend of mine was telling me that the best buy in surplus rifles are any of the French rifles - all like new, except for a few minor dings or scratches and are sold "As new - never fired, dropped once".

Thoughts?
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As far as best buy is concerned, I'd say the little Polish M-44 Mosin-Nagants, especially from the #11 factory, are the winners.
Fit and finish is commercial grade and they are very capable shooters. For sturdiness, they are almost indestructible.
As for the "dropped once", it tells a lot about your friend...
PP.
 
Hey, coyote_ugly, that's the Kraftwagen Kanone Modell 43/3 mit 71 Kaliberlange Lauf.
Ve MUST haff ze nomenklature korrekt, ja?

Still a big sucker!

For French rifles, there's really nothing much wrong with the MAS-36, apart from it chambering a silly French cartridge that you can't get. But there IS brass available from Tradex (tan button at the top of the page), Lee Precision makes decent dies that aren't expensive and this brass uses standard .30-calibre slugs and Boxer primers and you use the same powder as most other cartridges. It's a semi-short .30 but it's also a little fatter which might even make it modern or something.

An interesting combination and one really nice point is that if you happen onto a MAS-36, it's generally either unfired or so close that it makes no difference.

As for that wonderful French A6 (if I remember rightly), it was chambered for a special 6mm. THAT problem is surmountable. The INsurmountable problem is that the silly (*&*$s didn't SELL US any of them!!!!!! That's one toy I would really like to try.

But the old tried-and-true Lee-Enfield still is at the top of my list.... right next to my ROSS!
 
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Two Points:
1. Let's not slag poor John Garand too much. Absolutely the DUMBEST idea he used on his rifle was that idiotic clip-fed magazine..... but he was ORDERED to use it because it was invented by John Pederson, who was touted rather loudly by J. Moses Browning Himself as the 'Greatest Living Gun Designer'. Garand WANTED to build a MODERN rifle and he finally succeeded in doing so, but only in 1944 when he attached the BAR magazine to an altered M-1. This abortion-of-a-thing later became the celebrated and wonderfabobble US Rifle, 7.62mm, M-14..... which was a fun thing to play with until the dear old Gummint said 'thou shalt not'.

Point 2: I just wasted a whole $169.99 plus 2 kinds of taxes and brought home an SKS. It is a bit unusual and I have been googling SKSs for the last several hours. It's unfired, Tula, 1956, right at the very end of production and it is sweet. Seems that this model is rare in the States or something. No matter; it was bought for shooting. Interesting thing is that I picked it out of a whole storage-crate (15) of the things, all in the same condition. Mother Russia is selling off her war-reserve SKSs now that more Nikes are being made and Klacks are going into storage... and they are NICE. Robbie at Jo Brook was decent enough to let me pick one out and put it away for a small down-payment. Today I had some extra bucks, so it came home. And I just happen to have some brass, the dies, some slugs and a whole pound of 4198.
Fun coming up!

Of course, it can't POSSIBLY be as much fun as a Ross!
 
Stayign away for the French semi-automatic and automatics, how do the bold actions fare compared to their counterparts LEno1mk3, LEno4mk1, Springfield, p-14, P-17 G98/K98? The Libel, Berthier and so forth?
 
Allright, where did my post go?

V-bulletin again.

At the *(&%*&( top: Le No 4, then
LE No 1, tied with P-14/M-1917

Below them: most of the rest.

Below them: Springfield (sights 547 yards min: not sane)

LE series could be fitted to the men. Ergonomics COUNT.
Sights COUNT. Aperture tops, square-blade and U-notch next.
Bottom sights: Lewes revival on some Berthiers: Brits trashed these in 1890

General serviceability: LE at the top, P-14/17 just below, Ross tied with Mauser, Berthiers at the bottom. Lebel was a museum-piece even in 1914.

Maybe I'll write it all down again some time. Right now I'm TICKED by that idiotic 'timing out'..... as if the entire world runs on a stop-watch. Thorough replies which are CONSIDERED take TIME, especially on a complex issue.

It is just so STINKIN' frustrating.
 
In terms of arms-issued, the French military tended to be sorely behind-the curve, and it's a shame, given some of the brilliant tactics and fierce-fighting-efforts they showed in the face of enemy action. ....:yingyang:

Some examples:

Chauchat LMG: If the Bren was the best, this was quite possibly the worst. That it was sold to the American forces for anything other than training was - IMHO - an immoral and dishonest move....:(

Lebel-Berthier Mod 1907/15: Tactically, could not be replaced fast enough by the Mod 07/15.....:eek:....

MAS-36: Meh. Would have been good for WWI, as oppose to WWII. One either likes the design, or not.....:yingyang:

AA-52 MG : Not one of the better post WWII machine-guns, in terms of accuracy, design-wise and operationally speaking. It is very tempting to attribute some of this to the insistence on the 7.5x54mm French chambering, but....whatever?.....:wave:

MAT-49 (single-stack magazine-design was not optimal, otherwise highly valued by users, relative weight was not too much of an issue).

I have no doubt that arrogance played a fair-bit of a roll in certain things, but that can be applied to any colonial army. I'll have to recall which war with the Prussians it was, but there was a bloody nose or two that could definitely have been avoided....

And obviously, the Vichy really, really gave their armed forces a double black-eye.....:redface:
 
Their post -1940 semi-auto rifles are marvels of simplicity. They started the gas tube principle found on the AG42 and carried forward in the AR family. Gas bleeds off the bore, goes back in the tube, expands in a chamber on the bolt carrier. No moving parts. The bolt was copied by the Tokarov, SKS, FN49 and FN FAL (and everyone knows how well that turned out).

The trigger group is just about as simple. Trigger, sear, hammer with 2 hooks, twisted wire springs, rotating safety. The mag release is attached to the mag body and engages a notch on the receiver body.

Where the French rifles fall behind is in the US there are garage conversions of MAS 49/56 rifles from 7.62x54 to 7.62x51. Most of the conversions messed up the chamber support and gas tubes. Consequently the gun press slams every single rifle from there on into infinity. Not the case in the original form.

(Does it seem like I find the French rifles interesting ....?)
 
REALLY neat thing is that "la belle France" was supposedly a member of NATO. Everybody in NATO agreed to use the same ammo. Standardisation, after all, was one of the principle reasons for forming NATO in the first place.

So the French continued with their own bloody ammunition, expecting the rest of the world to cater to THEIR demands. But they built exactly the same rifle for NATO use, but in 7.62x51 NATO calibre. This was to be used in any NATO actions taking place in such places as Germany, which the dear folks in Mister Khrushchev's USSR were expected to invade momentarily.

They built 300 of them, by reports.

So we know what SUPPORT NATO could expect from France.

Yet NATO was expected to give support TO France.... and that included Canadians getting themselves killed (yet again) pour la gloire de la France..... while the French government and general staff offered nothing but derision to the 'coloniels' who were expeted to pull THEIR chestnuts out of the fire.... yet again.

France and the US both expect to run NATO. The difference is that the Yanks put their money where their mouths are. France never has.

Look back at how they treated Quebec while it still was theirs. Even the COINS were worth only half as much in France as they tariffed for in Quebec. When Jacques-au-Terre took his money to the Mother Country to buy something, he automatically lost 50 cents on the dollar: his penalty for being a lowly colonial. The Brits might still be "les sales Anglaises", but at least they gave Quebec a stable coinage with one value for everyone.... something that France couldn't lower itself to doing. And that is ONE of the reasons that French-Canadians fought for Canada so very well in the War of 1812.... something which most of us tend to forget.

That's the problem with history: if we're going to cite it, we have to cite it ALL, not just the parts that prove whatever point we are trying to make at a particular time.

One thing I would really like to do is test-out a 1777 Charleville and a Third Model Bess for a summer. Not repros, of course: the real things. Bess finally won the wars but the Charleville was a wonderful musket. Much the same can be said for later times: Lee-Enfield won but that A6 was really nice!

At least there are Lee-Enfields that we can buy.

Have fun!
 
I'd have to say the Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 as well. It's an excellent buy.

Yes, ammo isn't as plentiful as .308WIN/7.62NATO, however, with the prices of factory ammo these days, you pretty much have to reload if you want to shoot any real volume of quality ammo. So the whole ".308 is cheaper to buy" argument is now moot, in my opinion.

Moving on: Why?

Simple.

1) They are widely available in Canada and parts are still being imported for them. This makes them a solid rifle at a very low price. $350 for your average shooter ain't bad.

2) Rugged simplicity. Headspace out of whack? No problem, swap out the bolt head. Shooting high/low? No problem, swap in a new front sight. It's a numbered system. Too easy.

3) Accuracy, yeah it's no mauser, but shooting hand loads and ensuring the rifle is bedded well will give excellent results.

4) That slick action. I've shot mausers of all stripes, mosins, P14/17's, Springfields, etc, etc, etc... but nothing out there matches the smooth feel and quick reload time of an Enfield.

Argue all you like, but it's a personal preference of mine. I like all rifles, but I like my Enfields the best.
 
Interesting thread. I would go with a No.4 MkI/II, for the reasons given above. Easy to load for, parts and tech info available, and plain just a nice rifle!
 
My Norwegian Kar98k is the best shooting milsurp rifle I have ever had the pleasure to own. It's in .30-06 which is a big bonus. I still got a No4Mk1 project I have to finish up tho.
 
Best buy ? That depends what you call "best".
My personal favorites would be Lee Enfields and Mausers .They are not overly expensive,come in great variety of models,shapes and prices.All of them make great conversation pieces anywhere in the world ( i met couple of really great Serbs because of my M48A) .Best of all-ammo for them can be found everywhere,easily reloaded and components are not hard to find.Well ,maybe except some more exotic calibers in mausers.
 
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