Best combat handgun...

Kidd X said:
Didn't strike a nerve, just posting inaccurate unfounded "information" doesn't sit well with me. I am genuinely curious about your claims from your last post. The frame rails are adequate and provide minimal contact which allows debris to fall free. I have never seen a frame fracture at the rails but I have seen several G22 pistols shear rails right off. Modular is cool and I wouldn't doubt if Glock goes that route when the time comes. As it stands the modular style like that of the P320 is proving to be less than desirable as multiple frame swaps leaves the action loose and sloppy.



I'll keep that in mind, thanks Bob.



Competing against the "bottom feeder" polymer guns means nothing if the human using them can't shoot. The fact that no revolver shooter competes against those using autoloaders tells the tale. More rounds means you can shoot longer before reloading. It also means you can apply more rounds to a target/threat which is never a bad thing if you're in doubt of whether or not you hit your intended target. Like owlowl below points out, all those cliche sayings from ancient gun community folks are just sayings that have little and often zero credibility to back them up. I find it rather silly when you say you show the plastic guns what a "real gun looks and sounds like" by shooting your 1911. What makes it a "real" gun over any others and I can't recall a difference in muzzle report between any of the handgun calibres. Does report do anything productive?



Thanks for posting that!!



The incident occurred while tailing the suspects. The take down spot was not a pre planned location which makes placing a sharp shooter a bit of a problem.



I will be the Glock guy(again) on this one. The 320 is modelled after a Glock like all the other polymer striker fired guns. The difference is in the modular frame. Aside from that the 320 has a heavier trigger with no defined break/wall and a very non positive reset. The bore axis is slightly higher(trivial really) and the gun itself is wider, longer and heavier with more parts. By those simply criteria what does the 320 do better than a Glock?



Don't forget the SIG series of pistols, Beretta(served not overly proven), Glock 19/17 en mass, BHP, S&W 66/19, HK pistols of all sorts, I'm sure I'm missing a few more.



Gone through two wars where pistol tactics were non existent and handguns denoted rank more than being carried as an effective tool.



Shoot garbage reloads and expect your gun to detonate. No pistol is made to accept reloads and/or compromised recycled brass. Shoot virgin factory ammo and the issues disappear.
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I have not read up on the incident but i just wonder how long it would take a swat team to deploy with sniper on board.

Is this the incident where the guys were wearing full body armour or am i thinking something different?

Not sure how long swat teams have been around or even if there was one close by in the situation your talking about.

I would think todays swat would have a head shot lined up quick.
 
Gun Guy 34 the full body armour incident was in LA. The event KIDDX is referring to was the Miami shoot out with the FBI and as Slavex pointed out it was as much an ammo problem as anything else. Pistols vs rifles is a losing proposition at the best of times as the Famous But Incumbent found out the sad day.

KIDDX mentioned the Beretta as being untested. Iraq 1 & 2, Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa (remember Blackhawk Down) and anywhere else the US has been fighting since the M9 acceptance ought to count for something but I guess not for him. The US was not the only country to adopt the 92FS....Turkey comes to mind along with a hoast of LEO Departments in the US.

WW1 and the trenches along with the tunnels of Vietnam would be the last two major conflicts that I can think of where handguns played a significant and specific part in the war. The former mostly for keeping the folks moving forward but never the less useful in the trenches, along with shovels, shotguns and axes. KIDDX you will have to read about what I am talking about all the vets from WW1 are gone now. It was the baby boomers who pretty much were the last generation to hear of the carnage of that war from those who were there. Dad asked his father if he had a chance to do it all over again would he. The reply was, "they would have to shoot me first". May 15, 1915 to wars end.

Slavex threads like this are fun but don't mean anything. I suspect most know this when they throw out the name of their favourite blaster. Hell my list just mentioned some of the guns that have done well in their day. About as much as I can logically comment on. Most who have to use them have no choice but to use what is handed to them and you know it won't be a $1K Competition gun like some have suggested.

Take Care

Bob
 
mt666tm said:
I used to be a Sig fanboy, but lately I'd grab a G19 and call it a day
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I can relate. I shot my 226 and 229 exclusively for the longest time, but now my G19 sees the most range time. If it had a takedown lever like the Sig P series it might be the perfect gun. My only gripe with glocks is the takedown.
 
Canuck44 said:
Gun Guy 34 the full body armour incident was in LA. The event KIDDX is referring to was the Miami shoot out with the FBI and as Slavex pointed out it was as much an ammo problem as anything else. Pistols vs rifles is a losing proposition at the best of times as the Famous But Incumbent found out the sad day.

KIDDX mentioned the Beretta as being untested. Iraq 1 & 2, Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa (remember Blackhawk Down) and anywhere else the US has been fighting since the M9 acceptance ought to count for something but I guess not for him. The US was not the only country to adopt the 92FS....Turkey comes to mind along with a hoast of LEO Departments in the US.

WW1 and the trenches along with the tunnels of Vietnam would be the last two major conflicts that I can think of where handguns played a significant and specific part in the war. The former mostly for keeping the folks moving forward but never the less useful in the trenches, along with shovels, shotguns and axes. KIDDX you will have to read about what I am talking about all the vets from WW1 are gone now. It was the baby boomers who pretty much were the last generation to hear of the carnage of that war from those who were there. Dad asked his father if he had a chance to do it all over again would he. The reply was, "they would have to shoot me first". May 15, 1915 to wars end.

Slavex threads like this are fun but don't mean anything. I suspect most know this when they throw out the name of their favourite blaster. Hell my list just mentioned some of the guns that have done well in their day. About as much as I can logically comment on. Most who have to use them have no choice but to use what is handed to them and you know it won't be a $1K Competition gun like some have suggested.

Take Care

Bob
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Thanks and well said. Figured i had something mixed up.
 
Phat Eagle said:
Tactics have changed. Most COF now drill body armor/failure to stop... we're trained two to the body, then head 'til they drop.
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Ive see clips of those swat sniper guys making some awesome shots. But i dunno fk all about swat just figured in a big city they would have that capability.

Here in fort mac we had a bear attack and the reg officers only had shotguns. We had to wait for the PDS guy to show up with a rifle and kill the fkin thing. So if we ever need a sniper in town it will be that PDS guy tell ERT gets here from edmonton. Sadly i expect something horrifc any day up here.
 
Canuck44 said:
Gun Guy 34 the full body armour incident was in LA. The event KIDDX is referring to was the Miami shoot out with the FBI and as Slavex pointed out it was as much an ammo problem as anything else. Pistols vs rifles is a losing proposition at the best of times as the Famous But Incumbent found out the sad day.

KIDDX mentioned the Beretta as being untested. Iraq 1 & 2, Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa (remember Blackhawk Down) and anywhere else the US has been fighting since the M9 acceptance ought to count for something but I guess not for him. The US was not the only country to adopt the 92FS....Turkey comes to mind along with a hoast of LEO Departments in the US.

WW1 and the trenches along with the tunnels of Vietnam would be the last two major conflicts that I can think of where handguns played a significant and specific part in the war. The former mostly for keeping the folks moving forward but never the less useful in the trenches, along with shovels, shotguns and axes. KIDDX you will have to read about what I am talking about all the vets from WW1 are gone now. It was the baby boomers who pretty much were the last generation to hear of the carnage of that war from those who were there. Dad asked his father if he had a chance to do it all over again would he. The reply was, "they would have to shoot me first". May 15, 1915 to wars end.

Slavex threads like this are fun but don't mean anything. I suspect most know this when they throw out the name of their favourite blaster. Hell my list just mentioned some of the guns that have done well in their day. About as much as I can logically comment on. Most who have to use them have no choice but to use what is handed to them and you know it won't be a $1K Competition gun like some have suggested.

Take Care

Bob
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Being issued a Beretta that lost the Army trials to the SIG but won because Beretta would build a plant in the USA is a bit different then being given the option to choose what you want. Those folks don't choose Berettas and never have.

jory said:
I can relate. I shot my 226 and 229 exclusively for the longest time, but now my G19 sees the most range time. If it had a takedown lever like the Sig P series it might be the perfect gun. My only gripe with glocks is the takedown.
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What's the issue with the take down? It forces you to practice sight alignment and trigger control.
 
Phat Eagle said:
Tactics have changed. Most COF now drill body armor/failure to stop... we're trained two to the body, then head 'til they drop.
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That's frequently the drill in IDPA. Apparently if two body hits haven't done the job, additional rounds won't, hence the head becomes the next target. "Two in the body, one in the head."
 
grelmar said:
Wasn't there an old saying along the lines of:

"The only purpose of a handgun, is to keep you alive long enough to get to the rifle you never should have set down in the first place."
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Owoowl:And the answer would be "none". These would either be whatever was issued and was at hand. Or in case of real combat - it would not be a handgun to begin with. People don't go into combat with pistols for at least a century. If they ever get used in combat its a rare case of "everything went wrong already".

You two nail it on the head. I carried a HP on three tours to Afghanistan and never fired it in combat. Other than freeing me up from carrying a rifle in more secure settings, and giving me some level of defensive redundancy, it was little more than a particularly heavy millstone to lug around. We went through all nature of ammunition and munitions in combat, but I never heard of 9mm ever really being consumed outside of on the range. What I think is lost on a lot of people is that pistols to soldiers are almost purely defensive weapons, a backup that that in dire straights might give you a chance to get to a real weapon.

As to the the OP's question, although I love all steel pistols (1911s, CZ75s, etc), their weight make them pretty poorly suited for the role, when one considers how much weight a soldier is expected to shoulder. I love shooting my Shadow at the range, and a 1911 is a fine home defence pistol. But I'd hate to have to lug either one around in theatre. I'd want something light (so polymer), high capacity (so no 1911s, orher single stacks, revolvers or HPs), reliable and accurate. Plenty of modern handguns meet these criteria.€

Just my two cents.
 
Kidd X said:
Being issued a Beretta that lost the Army trials to the SIG but won because Beretta would build a plant in the USA is a bit different then being given the option to choose what you want. Those folks don't choose Berettas and never have.



What's the issue with the take down? It forces you to practice sight alignment and trigger control.
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Behave yourself TDC or im gonna post your pic!!
 
GunGuy34 said:
I never met him in person. Others that did say he can shoot decent. But I always pictured him as a short chubby guy with a little man complex and I was right lol. If Kiddx isn't TDC ill eat my shorts.
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No idea if KiddX is or not but if you're wrong, I suggest boiling the shorts for 2 days first. Will go down better! LOL!
And most people never look anything like they sound on a forum.
 
Kidd X said:
What's the issue with the take down? It forces you to practice sight alignment and trigger control.
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IMO it's just a pain in comparison to the Sig. You lock the slide back, and there's a big, meaty lever to actuate. With the glock I find that I'm good at pinching the inboard side lever down, and the other one always seems to slip out of my grip. I just prefer a large, easy to manipulate lever over those tiny little tabs. It's a minor gripe for an otherwise great gun!
 
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