Best long distance muzzle loader

powdergun

powdergun

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There are a lot of guns out there but most of them do not shine as a 200-250 yard hunting rifle. For the most part these inlines a limited to hunting ranges of 150- 200 yards max.

I've had many years to play with my savage MLII and I know what it will do. My question is the best rifle out there right now that is capable of decent 250 yard accuracy and knock down power. I know shot placement and all that but I've shot many deer with my savage and once you cross that 150 yard +/- there is a big drop in power and the bullet drops big time. I'm just wondering if there is a better gun out there that will produce more velocity with decent sized bullets.
 
There is no replacement for displacement. Bore size is your friend IMO.
It's like compressed air. 1/4" with 100 psi behind it doesn't mean much. 10" with 100 psi behind it would probably knock down an elephant.
Black powder isn't capable of that much velocity.
On the other hand a big bore throwing a big bullet, say 500 grain is going to be a deadly combination ( rainbow like trajectory of course). I'd imagine that a combo like that would also have a kick like a mule.
Ever heard of small bore BP elephant guns? Of course not, they don't work.
If you want 300 yd power get a serious big bore for big boys.
 
A Parker Hale Enfield Volunteer or Whitworth rifle both in 451 cal loaded to 100 to 120 grains of blackpowder with a 500gr bullet is roughly the equivilant of the Sharps 45/100 buffalo rifle.Both have the power and accuracy to take deer at 250 yards.They were designed for long distance shooting.
 
Good for you for starting this thread, powdergun. I been thinking about it for a while. Does anyone have any experience with some of the higher end production guns, like Pedersoli Gibbs, or custom rifles such as Doc White English Sporting rifles? I have been sort of kicking tires on both of these, but they are sort of pricey. Are they worth the extra $, or will some cheaper rifle, such as a Lyman Great Plains Hunter with the faster twist barrel do just as well. I emailed Doc White, and his rifle's base price is $1500, escalating quickly with sights and nice wood. Oh, and 1-2 year wait. My intention is not to try to hunting at long range, but to get some more knock down power at 100 yards, as well as targets at longer ranges. One of the things that appeals to me about the English Sporting Rifles is that I own an original one, made by Wm. Beckwith of London. It came from England when my Grandfather emigrated in 1891. I don't know if it was in the family before that, but |I assume so. If I find time this week, I think I'll put some pics up, and see what I can learn. For now, though, tell me what you know about Gibbs + White.
 
Most of the bullets that the inline crowd have available to them are pretty rude things when it comes to shooting beyond peeing distance, nothing compared to what that other black powder guys play with. You could get your savage barrel swapped to what the target boys use and start playing with some pretty interesting bullet designs out of a gun your already familiar with. A soft paper patch round 500 to 600 grains out of a quick twist inline would be something else.....:ar15:

The Gibbs would be unsuitable for hunting as it comes out of the box, its also unsuitable for sustained shooting out of the box with the nipples that come with it, they'l burn out after a couple dozen shots. Between installing useful hunting sights (it looks neat to try hunting with a full vernier sight, in reality it sucks), getting a platinum lined nipple your looking at a considerable expense for something thats neather fish nor fowl for hunting.

I can't comment on Doc Whites product I have never seen or used them.

Another option you may want to consider is a wesson rifle
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much cheaper, got a fairly tight twist to it and it has the mass to soak up some recoil.
 
I have owned a couple gibbs rifles...one I truly regret letting go since I got it on the cheap (1000ish) and it was one of the most accurate rifles I have owned for long range shooting. I had never tried to hunt with it...
 
Enlighten me...how does the vernier sight suck for hunting? oh, and what is the deal with the nipples burning out? I have seen that mentioned elsewhere, but no explanation. I'm guessing heavier bullets, more pressure...
 
Enlighten me...how does the vernier sight suck for hunting? oh, and what is the deal with the nipples burning out? I have seen that mentioned elsewhere, but no explanation. I'm guessing heavier bullets, more pressure...
 
Ever try looking through a vernier sight and globe front at dawn or just before dusk? Its pretty brutal. Your not letting alot of light into that nice tiny black arpeture. Your normal arpeture sights (lyman, marbles, redfield) for actual hunting are fine to use, target arpetures used on my MVA midrange sight are aweful to hunt with.

A good way to describe it would be the "blurry hole" that you look through when you use a vernier sight, becomes a pretty darn small hole when the light is starting to fade, its almost like it has shrunk. Combine that with the fact if you have a soule sight, there is nothing locking the windage down if you have to walk through some brush, and its pretty easy to turn those knobs by accident. If you've ever gotten a peice of fuzz or lint or erant peice of fiber thats 1 micron thick land anywhere near your aperture hole, its like trying to read a book through a fish tank.

The nice long staff will catch on everything it possibly can, and Mister..........these sights are FRAGILE!!! You are not going to find to many old buffalo guns with an original vernier sight on them. Most of those black powder guns that were used to hunt used open sights.

Peep sights are GREAT for hunting, its what I use 99 percent of the time, but they nave noticeable bigger arpertures and they are built much more sturdy and lower profile.

I dont know why the nipples burn out but they did on mine I thought it was pure BS myself, its pretty noticeable when it happens because your groups and accuracy go out the window. Some fellas think its the heavy charge and heavy bullets fault (your pushing alot more powder and lead out of these then your average 50 call roundball ML), myself I dont know.

Added a picture of the Wesson rifle for you.
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Theres is also a kit available that uses the green mountain barrels with the tight twist that the gibbs uses. http://www.longrifles-pr.com/allenboxlock.shtml
 
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my muzzle loader uses a .451 cal 535 grain with a lubed wad behind it. and 110 grains of 2f by some calculations it should be hitting about 1600fps if not a bit higher. makes short work of deer. problem is i need to turn the bullets into a mushroom they don't deform going through really. .451 going in and maybe 2" coming out.

tigher bore, more powder bigger bullet. anything to increase the pressure behind the cast bullet. will increase range. maybe not accuracy but range yes.

the load i have for mine is taken from the origional Rigby sporting rifle loads (which is what i own) for shooting to 1000 yards

i had to switch over to a musket cap on mine to get ignition to work better, using the smaller #11's there was to much backpressure from the charge it would blow the cap off.
 
Easyrider said:
Enlighten me...how does the vernier sight suck for hunting? oh, and what is the deal with the nipples burning out? I have seen that mentioned elsewhere, but no explanation. I'm guessing heavier bullets, more pressure...
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Yeah, they might burn out. But really, who cares when they can easily be replaced. Lots of BP enthusiasts experiment with these nipples (yeah lots of room for haha with this term!) 'hot shot' vented, musket cap nipples, #11s or 10s, tresos, etc. Just find me one BP muzzleloader fanatic that does not have oodles of tools and accessories from Dixie or Track of the Wolf?
 
barbarossa said:
A Parker Hale Enfield Volunteer or Whitworth rifle both in 451 cal loaded to 100 to 120 grains of blackpowder with a 500gr bullet is roughly the equivilant of the Sharps 45/100 buffalo rifle.Both have the power and accuracy to take deer at 250 yards.They were designed for long distance shooting.
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I have alot of respect for these extremely cool shooting machines, but IIRC the Whitworth rifle was designed to be optimum with 70 grains of BP. (maybe 80 is safe with new modern steel??)

Edit: I have to take back my words because apparently the P&H rifles are marked with 90 grains as maximum load right from the factory.

Sorry!
 
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IF you look in Sam Fadalas Black powder loading manual he lists a load of 130 grs of ffg or Pryodex as max for the PH volunteer rifle.

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This is an early PH Volunteer with Rigby rifling I just bought.It has been in storage all these years and as of yet hasn t been fired.
 
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Another gun to look is the Pedersloi Mortimer target rifle.A percussion version is available with a 451 bore with a 1.21 twist for bullet shooting.It is copied after an English sporting rifle and has a good set of sights on it.
 
I have a Gibbs and have owned it for a few years. It is by far the most reliably accurate long range muzzle loader I have ever shot. I did replace the nipple with platinum and I did buy a custom mould from "Boomer's Moulds". I don't use it for hunting here as my shots don't exceed 100 yards. It is heavy, long and, yes, it has a vernier sight which is hard to use in dusky conditions. It is a joy to shoot such small groups at long range.
Added - I recently hunted deer during our ML season. My Hawken's peep was dim at dusk so I opened it out and blacked it and what a difference it made. Dave
 
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There! That is exactly the kind of advice/opinions I'm looking for, guys! Perhaps I need to own more than one rifle, one for target, one for hunting...damn. :-D Hickstic real good advice. Actually, I have never shot a vernier/globe combination. I use an old original lyman tang site from a 99 Savage on my Great Plains, s0 I totally get the low light problem. The Lyman site has a little flip down insert that allows for bigger aperture when needed, and I flip the whole sight down and use open sight for real dim conditions. Globe front sight, maybe no such solution. The problem with a bead for target shooting, of course, is that sooner or later, the bead will cover the target, hence the front aperture. OBTW, that website with the Wesson rifle was pretty interesting! The Wesson is sort of fugly (YMMV) but there were lots of other choices, and the kit idea is appealing. I built two kits in the '80's, and I liked it. One can certainly save some coin that way, perhaps enough for a second rifle. One comment on the bllet/powder charge combinations; recoil must be an issue. I have, in my old age, lost the need to prove my manhood by demonstrating willingness to absorb punishment. Hence, a heavy rifle in smaller calibre strictly for target use might be good.
 
X2 regarding vernier sights for hunting. Just recently had my Sharps 45-90 out for deer - it was really gloomy and snowing - but got a really nice buck to less than a hundred feet then could not see him through the vernier peep sight even though I had the Hadley set at the largest size aperature. All I could see was a fuzzy grey background like a grey wool blanket so Mr. Buck is still out there. I'll save my vernier sights for the target range and good light conditions...
 
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