Best non-res SHTF gun?

[beavis_m305]

I completely agree with the 858 as being the ultimate SHTF go-to gun, but am a little worried about the corrosive ammo which we shoot from them. I never used to worry about it that much, rushing home to clean my gun after a day of shooting in the bush.
But I do know that with the humid climate of the coast, if you don’t clean your gun within a day it will inevitably start to rust — I’ve seen it in my shooting partner’s gun. This is NOT a good thing when you’re out in the bush blasting away with corrosive ammo and may not be able to get to a boiling water source or a cleaning kit for a couple of days because the “enemy” is preventing you from exposing your exact location.

Nevertheless, if you can deal with the corrosion issue, the 858 really is (IMO) the best possible go-to gun around.

this post got me wondering. what do people have as a SHTF cleaning kit? can you carry on your person, everything you need to keep you barrel in good order, your gun ticking over and tools required to dismantle it if you get a serious malfunction or a dunk in salt water?

 

[TDC]

this post got me wondering. what do people have as a SHTF cleaning kit? can you carry on your person, everything you need to keep you barrel in good order, your gun ticking over and tools required to dismantle it if you get a serious malfunction or a dunk in salt water?

A cleaning kit is a good idea, but short of keeping the chamber clean, the barrel is a non issue. The surface rust is a pain but not a show stopper. As for salt water swims, I couldn't say, I'm land locked and don't worry about such issues even though I probably should just in case..

TDC

 

[beavis_m305]

A cleaning kit is a good idea, but short of keeping the chamber clean, the barrel is a non issue. The surface rust is a pain but not a show stopper. As for salt water swims, I couldn't say, I'm land locked and don't worry about such issues even though I probably should just in case..

TDC

i guess all you'd need for the barrel would be a pull thru, a tube of autosol and a bottle of CLP

 

[the_klenzer]

I agree. nothing beats a CZ. For $1200 I have a cz858 non restricted, 2400 rounds of ammo, 8 mags and a full parts kit. Thats a total potential 240 loaded rounds if the rivets are out...

A general question to all reading this thread:

I see the SKS and the CZ 858 a lot in this thread.

Why the CZ858 over the SKS (lets say the SKS-D so mags aren't an issue)?

And why not the VZ58 over either of them?

 

[UCSPanther]

I think for bug-out: Kel Tec sub 2000 or Puma M92

For homestead defense: SKS, VZ 58 or mini 14

For all: 12 gauge shotgun.

 

[fat tony]

A rifle with some reach would be nice, but as for a shotgun, I think something like a NEF Tamer in 20 Gauge, or one of the NEF 'Compact' 20 gauge shotguns would be acceptable.

 

[TDC]

i guess all you'd need for the barrel would be a pull thru, a tube of autosol and a bottle of CLP

a pull through would do the job, although a rod would be nice for any stuck cases.

A general question to all reading this thread:

I see the SKS and the CZ 858 a lot in this thread.

Why the CZ858 over the SKS (lets say the SKS-D so mags aren't an issue)?

And why not the VZ58 over either of them?

The SKS is a vastly inferior system to the machined receiver, detachable magazine fed VZ/CZ. The D model is slightly better but as you pointed out, magazines are an issue. The SKS suffers from no last round hold open and is not as modular/user friendly as the VZ/CZ.

Based on ammo price and availability, the SKS D is a decent choice, but not the top of the heap.

I would say the 858 is the most common answer because it is the non res version. Nothing wrong with the res versions.

A rifle with some reach would be nice, but as for a shotgun, I think something like a NEF Tamer in 20 Gauge, or one of the NEF 'Compact' 20 gauge shotguns would be acceptable.

The VZ/CZ rifles are more than capable of making hits at 200 yards with and without optics. The chances of identifying a threat beyond 200 yards that can't be avoided are probably slim. You mention your desire for something with range, yet you also proclaim a 20ga shotgun would be acceptable. Care to explain?

TDC

 

[pres717]

Well, we all know SHTF might happen anytime. I'm on the road ALL the time, often over 100 km away from home, and since I'm changing adress pretty often, restricted are more of a pain in the ass than anything else... So something you can have with you all the time is kinda nice.


*please dont say stupid thing please*

Moving around a lot is one of the problems with restricteds. I am in a similar situation, although I have a perminant address where I keep my restricteds. Shooting them however, is difficult. For my non-restricteds I just bought lots of them and I leave some stored in each place I frequent

 

[blueflash]

A general question to all reading this thread:

I see the SKS and the CZ 858 a lot in this thread.

Why the CZ858 over the SKS (lets say the SKS-D so mags aren't an issue)?

And why not the VZ58 over either of them?

The CZ858 is basically the Canadian civilian version of the fully automatic military VZ58. I think that when people talk of the CZ858 or VZ58 they mean the same weapon, in most references.

The CZ858 is smaller in size, and much lighter, making it so much easier to transport and carry than the SKS. Its also more accurate, and with some Fab furniture, and a nice red dot scope, the CZ858 is a modern, light, tactical assault rifle, that is about the size of a Ruger 10/22 carbine. Yes you can get a Tapco stock and mag for the SKS, but its not in the same league. If you had a SKS for a SHTF rifle if would definetely get the job done, but if you had the choice to pick either rifle, the CZ858 is in a different class. The AK47 was invented to replace the SKS and its a big step up from the SKS. The VZ58 was invented by the Czechs because they did'nt want to use the AK47 because they knew that they could make a better design, and they did. The Russians agreed, and let them use it. If the rest of the Warsaw Pact was'nt already being supplied with the AK, then they would of probably used the VZ58 because its better than the AK.

 

[fat tony]

a pull through would do the job, although a rod would be nice for any stuck cases.



The SKS is a vastly inferior system to the machined receiver, detachable magazine fed VZ/CZ. The D model is slightly better but as you pointed out, magazines are an issue. The SKS suffers from no last round hold open and is not as modular/user friendly as the VZ/CZ.

Based on ammo price and availability, the SKS D is a decent choice, but not the top of the heap.

I would say the 858 is the most common answer because it is the non res version. Nothing wrong with the res versions.



The VZ/CZ rifles are more than capable of making hits at 200 yards with and without optics. The chances of identifying a threat beyond 200 yards that can't be avoided are probably slim. You mention your desire for something with range, yet you also proclaim a 20ga shotgun would be acceptable. Care to explain?

TDC

No. No, in fact, I do not care to. Have a day.

 

[blasted_saber]

.22 LR. You can carry far more ammo then any other gun.

 

[Throttle_monkey1]

My cz858 suffered from the gremlin, so until that was addressed, it was a f**king boat paddle. I'll use my tavor for a carry gun during SHTF. Short, accurate, reliable.

When my RFB gets here we'll see how it compares even though it's a .308

 

[jaycee]

M1 Garand.

Some have been calling for the M1 Garand Tanker, but since that is a semi-auto with a 16" barrel, it's restricted. Keeping with the spirit of this thread, ie. non-restricted firearm, I see no point in voting for any AR, AK, VZ, Tavor, AR-180B, Sig, etc, etc, because even though some are non-restricted, your mag is going to be Prohibited unless it's pinned to 5 (exception being the LAR15 mags).

If the S really hits the fan, I think I'll be more concerned with intermediate barriers, ie. vehicles, trees, walls, etc, etc, and one would be better served by a 308 or a 30-06. A close second to the Garand would be an M1A with A LOT of 5-round stripper clips. Third would probably go to the SKS with A LOT of stripper clips.

 

[cyclone]

Just to.........I've never seen an SKS magazine "discombobulate" like a CZ's can...

 

[Brutus]

M1 Garand.

Some have been calling for the M1 Garand Tanker, but since that is a semi-auto with a 16" barrel, it's restricted. Keeping with the spirit of this thread, ie. non-restricted firearm, I see no point in voting for any AR, AK, VZ, Tavor, AR-180B, Sig, etc, etc, because even though some are non-restricted, your mag is going to be Prohibited unless it's pinned to 5 (exception being the LAR15 mags).

If the S really hits the fan, I think I'll be more concerned with intermediate barriers, ie. vehicles, trees, walls, etc, etc, and one would be better served by a 308 or a 30-06. A close second to the Garand would be an M1A with A LOT of 5-round stripper clips. Third would probably go to the SKS with A LOT of stripper clips.

Sorry but my Garand tanker copy in 7.62x51mm, has an 18.5 inch barrel (if it was restricted I would never have mentioned it)

 

[TDC]

M1 Garand.

Some have been calling for the M1 Garand Tanker, but since that is a semi-auto with a 16" barrel, it's restricted. Keeping with the spirit of this thread, ie. non-restricted firearm, I see no point in voting for any AR, AK, VZ, Tavor, AR-180B, Sig, etc, etc, because even though some are non-restricted, your mag is going to be Prohibited unless it's pinned to 5 (exception being the LAR15 mags).

If the S really hits the fan, I think I'll be more concerned with intermediate barriers, ie. vehicles, trees, walls, etc, etc, and one would be better served by a 308 or a 30-06. A close second to the Garand would be an M1A with A LOT of 5-round stripper clips. Third would probably go to the SKS with A LOT of stripper clips.

The classification is only of concern before the collapse, afterwards its a moot point. Rolling around with a non res firearm is less of a hassle prior to collapse than a res firearm. If you feel the need to carry a firearm openly, especially a long gun, you can be sure all bets are off. Unpinned magazines are far from being a concern when you've already decided to shoot another human.

As for barrier penetration. Do you think 7.62x39, 5.56x45 or 12ga won't penetrate a vehicle? All calibres have their limits. Shooting through a barrier without knowing whats beyond it is a violation of the fundamental four.

Avoiding contact is the name of the game, not actively looking for it. Limited numbers and finite resources seriously limit ones ability to get "pro active". Little to no medical care available is a big factor in determining whether or not you should get involved in a protracted engagement. Avoiding contact means firing as few rounds as possible while not getting shot. That means not wasting ammo firing through barriers at an opponent you cannot confirm is there or even a threat.

Just to.........I've never seen an SKS magazine "discombobulate" like a CZ's can...

Do explain. Did you see a CZ mag come apart during operation? Magazines are the weak point to magazine fed semi autos. A failed magazine can and should be replaced by a spare(or 2 or 10) carried on the person or readily accessible. Internal mags like that on an SKS do away with some of the issues but bring with them more serious issues. A failed follower spring in an SKS means your semi auto is now a glorified bolt gun. I have yet to see a VZ mag fail without the help of negligence or modification by the user.

TDC

 

[TDC]

.22 LR. You can carry far more ammo then any other gun.

I fully agree, a lot of ammo can be carried, the report is mild, recoil non existent and ammo found in almost any location where firearms are located. The downside is that 22 lacks range and has poor terminal performance especially at range. Although I'm sure a .22 in the calf at 150 yards would persuade someone to pick another victim.

TDC

 

[beavis_m305]

 

[Starscream]

You can forget about that! There's NO WAY a unionized postal worker would work in an un-safe work environment!

Ok, assuming that you found (1) mailman to deliver it (however unlikely). Now, who's going to enforce the revocation without going to your door to collect it? Please don't tell me you'd voluntarily go out of your way to surrender the only means of defending yourself?

Well we're talking about a more realistic SHTF right? Like pretend Hurricane Make-Believe comes in and hits Vancouver. Island, floods that sucker with 10 story high waves. Half the police force is dead, rest is abandoning the posts to get help for their families, all utilities are out, and general anarchy rules.

Realistically, what will happen is that the CF and RCMP, both regular and reserves, would be activated under the Emergencies Act to secure the area, set up basic infrastructure, provide relief, and assess the situation for the higher ups. Plenty of looting and pillaging going around, people trying to survive in a bad situation. Military rolls in, sees a few yahoos point a gun at them and suddenly, "Oh noes, we've got people with guns in there. Take them awaaaay from the people!"

That's essentially how it happened in New Orleans after Katrina; national guard went door to door seizing any gun they happened across. I can't see the CF acting any different (not a knock on the soldiers, but rather a knock on the decision makers on high).

It's why the pistol becomes so valuable in disaster SHTF. On high cannot take away what they cannot see.

 

[fat tony]

Stealth should be a weapon in your arsenal. my $.02.