Well Swiss and cz858 are military grade cause a military has it
The rest no military has them
Ohh forgot the tavor and x95
Best NR rifle
- Thread starter y2k
- Start date
Well Swiss and cz858 are military grade cause a military has it
The rest no military has them
Ohh forgot the tavor and x95
Oh I know, but I'm still trying to find experiences of people that matter, because mine don't lol.
You just described every thread on this forum. If you are looking for facts, you will have to find them on your own
Does "military grade" mean suitable for military service? Or, does it mean extensive history of military deployment?
onetwentyish
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- East Central AB (AKA Northern Texas)
To me, a history of successful military service is a big positive accolade to that particular firearm's design, especially if it has seen actual war which will often expose a firearm's otherwise unforeseen problem/design flaw/weekness.
However, I dont feel it is necessary for a firearm to be a good design. The only thing a "battle proven design" guarantees is that people will be boasting about their "battle proven design" firearm over others "non-proven" firearms until the end of times.
However, I dont feel it is necessary for a firearm to be a good design. The only thing a "battle proven design" guarantees is that people will be boasting about their "battle proven design" firearm over others "non-proven" firearms until the end of times.
Lol, I forgot how much the XCR hate flowed through your veins! I agree that it is an underwhelming gun; but when they are selling for <$2000 used, in great condition, it is hard not to think that is great value. Also, loctite hasn't been necessary for a number of years
blaxsun
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
It's not so much hate as it is a quest...Lol, I forgot how much the XCR hate flowed through your veins! I agree that it is an underwhelming gun; but when they are selling for <$2000 used, in great condition, it is hard not to think that is great value. Also, loctite hasn't been necessary for a number of years
At <$2000 we're also in used Tavor territory, so...It's not so much hate as it is a quest...
Indeed we are, and it is likely a better quality firearm. For the shooting I'm doing though, I found the XCR better suited than the Tavor. Though I do miss carrying the Tavor in the tractor. I think it made the best bunny defence gun.
I think the best 223 for the money is still the classic Ruger Mini 14. It's not the coolest thing around by any means but it gets the job done in the same half hearted way that many more expensive 223s will.
For me, most of the 223 offerings are anemic by design because they typically do not have a 1:7 barrel twist rate. Cheap shooters who shoot cheap milsurp ammo strangely expect good accuracy with that junk and they get best accuracy with that type of ammo with a slow twist rate. That does not make slow twist rifles better in any way, just better with junk ammo.
Once you understand the advantages of a fast twist barrel like the 1:7 offered in the Bushmaster ACR DMR for example, you may be able to justify the higher cost. On the other hand it is a point of frustration that the more affordable rifles are not offered with a 1:7. Usually its a chicken SHHHHt 1:9 and there is no manufacturing cost difference associated with twist rate.
So if you just want to blast away then barrel twist may be a moot point to you. If you want to hunt deer and want to maximize terminal performance, or you want to perform better... much better... at extended range, then you'll insist on the 1:7.
That leaves only one option that I'm aware of and its the ACR DMR or a custom barrel on any of the others.
For me, most of the 223 offerings are anemic by design because they typically do not have a 1:7 barrel twist rate. Cheap shooters who shoot cheap milsurp ammo strangely expect good accuracy with that junk and they get best accuracy with that type of ammo with a slow twist rate. That does not make slow twist rifles better in any way, just better with junk ammo.
Once you understand the advantages of a fast twist barrel like the 1:7 offered in the Bushmaster ACR DMR for example, you may be able to justify the higher cost. On the other hand it is a point of frustration that the more affordable rifles are not offered with a 1:7. Usually its a chicken SHHHHt 1:9 and there is no manufacturing cost difference associated with twist rate.
So if you just want to blast away then barrel twist may be a moot point to you. If you want to hunt deer and want to maximize terminal performance, or you want to perform better... much better... at extended range, then you'll insist on the 1:7.
That leaves only one option that I'm aware of and its the ACR DMR or a custom barrel on any of the others.
There are 5.56's out there that don't have current military contracts for one reason or another, but are decent rifles. "Best" is a term usually defined by the individual. While a current Mini 14 may be the best answer for one person, the next person will accept nothing less than a Black Special flat top with 1 in 7" twist sporting an Elcan, etc. We have a good number of NR options out there and a person just needs to decide on one balancing your needs, wants and the kool-aid factor.
The Swiss Arms is available with a 1:7 twist barrel and mine is so equipped. It really likes 62gr green tip keeping most surplus I've tried within 2moa when I do my part. It really likes 75gr Hornaday BTHP over CFE223. Depending on what optic I have mounted I've managed more than a few groups in the MOA region.
Clearly my vote is for the Swiss Arms.
Why is a Swiss Arms rifle and a divorce so expensive? Because their worth it.
The NR tax distorts our metric of value when it comes to rifles, we all know that. Using the criteria of: semi auto, 5.56mm with AR15 magazine compatibility, optics ready, the options are going to be based on price point.
SU16: The least expensive, has a bad reputation for durability issues. I don't know if that got rectified or not, but a rifle that fails structurally after relatively normal usage has a black cloud over it for good. At least it's lightweight and has standard control placements.
T97: some people like them, they aren't optic ready out of the box and require modifications to reliably use many magazines on the market. Poor control placement, users will have more difficulty manipulating the safety and mag release than the others mentioned. Some have had issues with feeding, quality control is marginal. At least these go for less than 1000 new.
Jard48: I have no idea what this rifle is capable of, but there doesn't seem to be manufacturer support available and there are reliability issues. Inexpensive though.
Ar-180
Pretty capable rifles, great design and good ergonomics. Somewhat expensive for what it is, there aren't as many of these around any more. I'd pick one up for under 1500 used if I was looking for a NR black rifle right now.
MR1: I have one and I like it, but there are lots of areas to improve. It doesn't come with a flash suppressor or even a threaded muzzle. The controls are not where they are on an ar15 style rifle. Sights are low like a mini 14, so any optics designed to cowitness with ar15 lower 1/3 will be too high to get a good cheek weld. Still, I picked mine up for 1200 used and it's reliable and accurate. It also has the best trigger I've felt on a rack grade semi, bar none.
M17s: I don't have the K&M version, so I can't speak to that. It's a sleek but deceivingly heavy bullpup. Great control layout, it shoots well and is reliable (pretty much an ar18 action). The stock rail makes a crappy and limited scope mount, get some aftermarket rails to make it a flat top. It's kinda picky with magazines, but likes some of the more common options. They seem to be going for about 1500 used right now.
XCR: Everybody and their mother has shot one or owns one. Nice features, good controls, calibre conversion ready... I don't know anybody that has had the purported loctite and QC issues I've heard so much about on cgn. I find them to be pretty heavy (especially the heavy profile barrel models). Expensive! I seldom see one for less than 2000 used. Unless it has a high round count and a messy krylon job of course.
Tavor/X95: A partner of mine went this route, he's very happy with his and it performs well. He paid 2400 used for the rifle with some mags and the carrying case. I find the weight to be distributed nicely and the selector lever is in the right place. I don't like the trigger. At least it's "combat proven", in case you're planning on going to war with it.
ACR: A nice rifle, very similar in concept to the xcr. Quick change barrels, if that's something necessary for you. It's also $3000 minimum for a NR, used example. For what it's worth, I think it's the best looking rifle out of the lot of them.
Modern Varminter: Damn our laws. How much are you willing to pay for a NR AR-15?
SU16: The least expensive, has a bad reputation for durability issues. I don't know if that got rectified or not, but a rifle that fails structurally after relatively normal usage has a black cloud over it for good. At least it's lightweight and has standard control placements.
T97: some people like them, they aren't optic ready out of the box and require modifications to reliably use many magazines on the market. Poor control placement, users will have more difficulty manipulating the safety and mag release than the others mentioned. Some have had issues with feeding, quality control is marginal. At least these go for less than 1000 new.
Jard48: I have no idea what this rifle is capable of, but there doesn't seem to be manufacturer support available and there are reliability issues. Inexpensive though.
Ar-180
Pretty capable rifles, great design and good ergonomics. Somewhat expensive for what it is, there aren't as many of these around any more. I'd pick one up for under 1500 used if I was looking for a NR black rifle right now.MR1: I have one and I like it, but there are lots of areas to improve. It doesn't come with a flash suppressor or even a threaded muzzle. The controls are not where they are on an ar15 style rifle. Sights are low like a mini 14, so any optics designed to cowitness with ar15 lower 1/3 will be too high to get a good cheek weld. Still, I picked mine up for 1200 used and it's reliable and accurate. It also has the best trigger I've felt on a rack grade semi, bar none.
M17s: I don't have the K&M version, so I can't speak to that. It's a sleek but deceivingly heavy bullpup. Great control layout, it shoots well and is reliable (pretty much an ar18 action). The stock rail makes a crappy and limited scope mount, get some aftermarket rails to make it a flat top. It's kinda picky with magazines, but likes some of the more common options. They seem to be going for about 1500 used right now.
XCR: Everybody and their mother has shot one or owns one. Nice features, good controls, calibre conversion ready... I don't know anybody that has had the purported loctite and QC issues I've heard so much about on cgn. I find them to be pretty heavy (especially the heavy profile barrel models). Expensive! I seldom see one for less than 2000 used. Unless it has a high round count and a messy krylon job of course.
Tavor/X95: A partner of mine went this route, he's very happy with his and it performs well. He paid 2400 used for the rifle with some mags and the carrying case. I find the weight to be distributed nicely and the selector lever is in the right place. I don't like the trigger. At least it's "combat proven", in case you're planning on going to war with it.
ACR: A nice rifle, very similar in concept to the xcr. Quick change barrels, if that's something necessary for you. It's also $3000 minimum for a NR, used example. For what it's worth, I think it's the best looking rifle out of the lot of them.
Modern Varminter: Damn our laws. How much are you willing to pay for a NR AR-15?
"How much are you willing to pay for a NR AR-15?"
That is the key here. If the AR was made non-restricted tomorrow, this conversation would be over. I am not saying that the AR is the best rifle, but all these other options would no longer sell as much as they do.
That is the key here. If the AR was made non-restricted tomorrow, this conversation would be over. I am not saying that the AR is the best rifle, but all these other options would no longer sell as much as they do.
