Best rifle and caliber for large varmits to medium sized game?

[BCWILL]

That's hilarious!!

X 2 !

Oh and put me down for the 243

 

[grnhawg]

Well back to ESSEX County!
I don't think you have a centerfire rifle season for Deer down there so unless you are going to take a drive north you will be shooting varmints only with the largest being ferral dogs and coyotes. .243 is way enough gun for all those and then some and if you take the drive north it will cleanly dispatch the largest of Deer with the heavier bullets. 58 or 65 Vmax's will shoot chucks and crows across the farm all day and leave no bruises or fatuiged body parts. The Stevens or Savage will get you shooting inside your price range and will shoot with the best of more costly guns. Stay clear of the NEF!! You want to spend time shooting varmints not looking for a load that will shoot. I have one in .243. My other .243 is a Reminton varmint contour and it will shoot chucks routinly at 400yrds. Bit more money but the Remington is a very nice rifle
I hear them Tika's aren't bad but Tika to me sounds more like something you'd name a female Husky puppy (grnhawg can now see smoke coming from BigRedds ears )

 

[BIGREDD]

I read the following in The Rifle Book by Jack O’Connor.

“The 257 got some bad breaks. For one thing, the original bullet was round-nosed and the cartridge was given a short overall length. … Standard factory ballistics give the 100-grain bullet at 2900 feet per second… . These figures can be considerably improved with judicious handloading. … With 49 grains of No 4831 it can be given about 3200 with permissible pressures.”

I think these words first appeared in the 1964 edition of the book. Barrel length is not mentioned, but even if it was 24 inches, as opposed to 22, does this mean the 25WSSM is something we should get all hot and bothered about?

On the other hand, Supercub is clearly wrong, in that the 25 WSSM does NOT “duplicates the centuries older 257 Roberts.” The Roberts is an elegant and timesless cartridge that meets the requirements of the discriminating hunter. It also feeds flawlessly.

In my view the 25WSSM is a disgusting monument to hype and ignorance. It is a cartridge a later day Elvis Presley might like, to be chambered in a chrome-platted, custom job, with a synthetic stock studded in rhinestones. The sort of thing a New York pimp might like to have. It would match the white jump suit Elvis used for his Vegas Shows. The “King” could use it to shoot out street lamps in Memphis, while swallowing down cheeseburgers, whole, and emptying bottle after bottle of amphetamines.

That is what the 25WSSM is all about.

Big

15 post and an expert is born...quoting an obscure and illusory musing from Jack O Conner and hacking on Elvis certainly makes you special if nothing else.
FYI the #27 Hogdon Manual actually lists a load for the .257 Roberts. 49 grains of 4831and the ACTUAL velocity from a 26 inch barrel is EXACTLY 3010 measly fps... sorry about your luck.
The 25WSSM duplicates the 25-06 right across the board with factory loads or reloads of any description. And in most cases it will do so with a shorter barrel and 10-20% less powder. This is an undisputed fact... are you gonna tell me now that the .257 Roberts can equal the 25-06.
So you fellas can compare apples to coconuts all day long but you have no facts to back them up.

 

[BIGREDD]

Well back to ESSEX County!
I don't think you have a centerfire rifle season for Deer down there so unless you are going to take a drive north you will be shooting varmints only with the largest being ferral dogs and coyotes. .243 is way enough gun for all those and then some and if you take the drive north it will cleanly dispatch the largest of Deer with the heavier bullets. 58 or 65 Vmax's will shoot chucks and crows across the farm all day and leave no bruises or fatuiged body parts. The Stevens or Savage will get you shooting inside your price range and will shoot with the best of more costly guns. Stay clear of the NEF!! You want to spend time shooting varmints not looking for a load that will shoot. I have one in .243. My other .243 is a Reminton varmint contour and it will shoot chucks routinly at 400yrds. Bit more money but the Remington is a very nice rifle
I hear them Tika's aren't bad but Tika to me sounds more like something you'd name a female Husky puppy (grnhawg can now see smoke coming from BigRedds ears )

Great to hear from the undisputed champion of Varmint killers... Nice to have you back grnhawg
I really like the .243 as well... but I gotta tell you bud that little quarter bore will outshoot that .243 at long range all day long.
We will have to get together in the killing fields this summer for sure... and put it to the test.

 

[SuperCub]

15 post and an expert is born...quoting an obscure and illusory musing from Jack O Conner and hacking on Elvis certainly makes you special if nothing else.
FYI the #27 Hogdon Manual actually lists a load for the .257 Roberts. 49 grains of 4831and the ACTUAL velocity from a 26 inch barrel is EXACTLY 3010 measly fps... sorry about your luck.

How is it that the findings/writings of JOC are "obscure and illusory" and the Hogdon Manual is to be accepted as gospel?

And while the Elvis/25WSSM comparison WAS hilarious, the statement was prefaced with the words, "In my view", so it should be taken with a grain of salt, and not as an "expert" opinion.

Besides, we all know that there is only one REAL expert here on CGN, and that is ............

CAPTAIN DEADLY!

.

 

[Yuri Orlov]

I hear them Tika's aren't bad but Tika to me sounds more like something you'd name a female Husky puppy

My neighbour has a Jack Russel named Tikka! lol

grnhawg is right tho...if you want to do much shooting locally, then .243 is more than enough...and sometimes as much as you're allowed.

 

[grnhawg]

Great to hear from the undisputed champion of Varmint killers... Nice to have you back grnhawg
I really like the .243 as well... but I gotta tell you bud that little quarter bore will outshoot that .243 at long range all day long.
We will have to get together in the killing fields this summer for sure... and put it to the test.

Sounds like a plan! There's groundhawgs sleeping under those hayfeilds right now just waiting die.
My experience with .25's is limited. I shot a 40X in .25/06 on a chuck shoot once and it wasn't bad but the longest shot of the day was with that same old .243 I always take. The shot was on a pup hiding in the alfalfa on all fours @ 375 yrds. Not a long shot but the longest that day. I had a .257 Roberts once for a short time. It was a Mauser 96 with the lock time of a locamotive and cocked on closing. It's 22" barrel made it a no contest as a varmint rifle. I loaded it with 75ers in order to get some varmintable velocities and couldn't hit a barn halfway across a feild let lone a chuck's noggin at the other end of that same feild. I got rid of it strait away. That said though I have often thought I'd like to try a .257 AI in a decent action and a little more barrel

 

[John Marshall]

25 wssm

I have a browning a bolt in 25 wssm and personally I love it. I am not an expert on reloading stats but I have killed more than my share of predators. I find it bucks the wind well with a heavier bullet and out to 400 yds it is very predictable. Most of the people that I have met that carve the 25 dont own one. My research has shown that is equal to the 25-06 which is considered an excellent round? I was recently browsing through a 1972 edition of Gun digest and there is an excellent article about the merits of the 25 round. 257,25-06 25-35 etc. I have used a 22-250 and a 243 for many years but I think with some time the 25 will hold its own. The cartridge design is similar to the likes of 6br. Very short case, Therefore less time for combustion. Therefore less window of oppurtunity for inacuracies.

 

[BIGREDD]

How is it that the findings/writings of JOC are "obscure and illusory" and the Hogdon Manual is to be accepted as gospel?

And while the Elvis/25WSSM comparison WAS hilarious, the statement was prefaced with the words, "In my view", so it should be taken with a grain of salt, and not as an "expert" opinion.

Besides, we all know that there is only one REAL expert here on CGN, and that is ............

CAPTAIN DEADLY!

.

Well I personally like Jack O.... but he obviously never chronied that load or he would have made that fact perfectly clear. And If you have any doubts about that data then chrony the load... Hogdon certainly is not publishing false Data just to belittle the .257 Roberts.
If you think that published Data is somehow less credible than a best guess or an opinion.. than well... you are special too.
The Elvis Statement could be interpreted as humour I suppose... But in my opinion it was served up in a feeble attempt to ridicule something that is beyond the authors limited understanding.

P.S. Captain Deadly is only an expert at one thing....

 

[Mur]

Best calibre

6mmRemington,55gr Ballistic Tip for varmints,100gr Partition for deer!

 

[BIGREDD]

I have a browning a bolt in 25 wssm and personally I love it. I am not an expert on reloading stats but I have killed more than my share of predators. I find it bucks the wind well with a heavier bullet and out to 400 yds it is very predictable. Most of the people that I have met that carve the 25 dont own one. My research has shown that is equal to the 25-06 which is considered an excellent round? I was recently browsing through a 1972 edition of Gun digest and there is an excellent article about the merits of the 25 round. 257,25-06 25-35 etc. I have used a 22-250 and a 243 for many years but I think with some time the 25 will hold its own. The cartridge design is similar to the likes of 6br. Very short case, Therefore less time for combustion. Therefore less window of oppurtunity for inacuracies.

I have pretty much the same opinion and experiences regarding the 25wssm and wind drift.

 

[SuperCub]

Well I personally like Jack O.... but he obviously never chronied that load or he would have made that fact perfectly clear. And If you have any doubts about that data then chrony the load...

He May or May Not have chronied that load, but just because he does no mention it doesn't make it obvious that he didn't.

All I know is that I did chrony that load in a long action with a long throat and got exactly the same results as him.

“The 257 got some bad breaks. For one thing, the original bullet was round-nosed and the cartridge was given a short overall length. … Standard factory ballistics give the 100-grain bullet at 2900 feet per second… . These figures can be considerably improved with judicious handloading. … With 49 grains of No 4831 it can be given about 3200 with permissible pressures.”



.

 

[SuperCub]

If you think that published Data is somehow less credible than a best guess or an opinion.. than well... you are special too.

You and I both know that published loading data is a guideline only regulated by lawyers. Loading data varies widley, esp from older to new manuals. Hogdon is limited in it's pressures for older calibers like the 257Roberts and others like it given the possibility of some imbecile loading it hot for some old military small ring mauser or other weak action. If the 25WSSM was loaded to "published" 257Roberts pressures, the results would be much different, but you know that already.


.

 

[BIGREDD]

You and I both know that published loading data is a guideline only regulated by lawyers. Loading data varies widley, esp from older to new manuals. Hogdon is limited in it's pressures for older calibers like the 257Roberts and others like it given the possibility of some imbecile loading it hot for some old military small ring mauser or other weak action. If the 25WSSM was loaded to "published" 257Roberts pressures, the results would be much different, but you know that already.


.

Same old argument same old bull####... as we already have concluded in this same argument over and over again... the 25wssm does not develop anymore pressure than the 25-06.... in fact it develops less when you correlate the pressures from CUP to PSI. So how much pressure do you think the Roberts would develop using 20% more powder to achieve the same velocity as a 25WSSM... geezuz if your gonna talk foolish lets take this to the off topic section.
Or better yet lets go here and start all over.. http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39238&page=10

 

[SuperCub]

You changed the subject ........ My points were these.

1. Published loading data varies widely.
2. Older calibers are given lower pressures (in published data) in consideration to older/weaker actions that may be used. This is called "liability management".


.

 

[SuperCub]

15 post and an expert is born...quoting an obscure and illusory musing from Jack O Conner and hacking on Elvis certainly makes you special if nothing else.

If you think that published Data is somehow less credible than a best guess or an opinion.. than well... you are special too.

But in my opinion it was served up in a feeble attempt to ridicule something that is beyond the authors limited understanding.

if your gonna talk foolish lets take this to the off topic section.

It must REALLY be frustrating trying to help "special people" with "limited understand" and "foolish" ideas, grasp at the realm of reality.


.

 

[BIGREDD]

You changed the subject ........ My points were these.

1. Published loading data varies widely.
2. Older calibers are given lower pressures (in published data) in consideration to older/weaker actions that may be used. This is called "liability management".


.

Did you forget how this started??? You posted a severely over Max load in a Custom rifle as a comparison with a factory rifle cartridge and published Data? In a futile attempt to justify your contention that a .257 Roberts is as fast as a 25wssm
This was a laughable statement when you made it and it has not ceased to be laughable since.

I'll wager you have never measured the case head expansion on your reloads! Do you realize that .0002 case head expansion is considered the maximum for a .257 Roberts? Anything over that and you are in dangerous pressure territory... regardless of the lack of primer flattening or extraction marks.
I have no such issues with my 25 wssm and I look for ALL the pressure signs.
I certainly would not advocate an over Max load in a feeble attempt to justify my choice or bolster my argument.

 

[senior]

I have a manual that shows 3 loads for the 257R, 100gn hoovering around 3100, none of them using 4831
I am sure with the new wave of modern powders there's maybe a little left!
REDD just what was the barrel length the .250wsm velocity's were given from?

There's really not a groundhog or deer anyway that'll feel 100fps second difference!

My answer to original question would be to pick up whatever rifle you got the best deal on & felt best!, in caliber.....257r, 25-06 or 25wsm! I too am a quarter bore fan but would use a .250s just because of the aura around it

 

[BIGREDD]

The barrel length for published data for the wssm is the standard 24" (I have chrony'd both 22" and the 24" versions)
Whereas the Published Roberts Data that I have found and quoted is all using a 26 inch barrel. Again my own experience with the Roberts was a 26 inch heavy barrel and a 22 inch Lever. The efficiency of the WSSM is far more forgiving of shorter barrel length than the standard Roberts.

The argument here is not one of generalities or klling power... it is simply one of denial.

What book are you using Senior? I would be interested in the specific barrel length and powders used to achieve that Data!

 

[senior]

I just checked & my book with the 3100s don't give barrel length, so it may well have been 26"? I did also just check my Hornady book & while it's always been a bit on the conservative side it does show four loads for 100s at 3000fps with a 22" barrel, so it's sure not out of realm of realism to expect 3100 easily with a little attention to pressure signs.

I believe the 257r same as .280, 45-70 & a few others, in factory ammo will not show the true potential of said caliber but that is not a reason to dismiss them unless your not a handloader.
"comparison with a factory rifle cartridge and published Data?"