Best SHTF Ammo for a 10.5 inch Barreled AR.

Absolutely wrong!

A 40 grain Vmax bullet will break up long before reaching the vital organs. It is designed for use on small varments not man sized targets. Total fragmentation at 4 inches.
Get your facts straight and check out my last post and it's links to access the latest professional opinion.
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Again, you aren't paying attention. Reading and comprehension man!

I did not say that a VMAX was the best or most effective bullet. I said it would expand the most reliably. I am well aware of the performance and potential limitations of a polycarbonate tipped bullet, I have shot thousands of them at gophers. I hinted at this in my last sentence when I noted that there are other issues involved in terminal effectiveness of rifle bullets.

You have also suddenly changed the subject. The original topic was the terminal effectiveness of a specific bullet. Now you have added in barrier penetration which is an entirely different problem. Now the bullet has to penetrate a hard barrier AND perform well in soft tissue.


A 40 grain Vmax bullet will break up long before reaching the vital organs. It is designed for use on small varments not man sized targets. Total fragmentation at 4 inches.
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You have presented this information without consideration of what it actually means. How many of your vital organs are deeper than 4" inside the body? Of course this depends upon the angle of the shot but most of the time there is less than a couple of inches of tissue between the heart, lungs, spinal column etc and the outside world. So if a bullet has at least 4" of penetration and the vital organs are within 2" of the surface then how can you say the bullet "will break up long before reaching the vital organs?"

Have you ever actually seen what a 40gr VMAX does to tissue at 3800 fps? I can assure you it is impressive. Even if it didn't hit any vital organs I certainly wouldn't want to get hit with something like that. The wound would be horrific and extremely bloody.

Realizing that this is a very different bullet, I have shot .30 cal 110gr VMAX at coyotes. The bullet completely transited the body (6-8") and produced a 4" diameter exit hole. Upon inspection, the interior organs had been turned into a slurry that sloshed back and forth in the body cavity. The shear energy and explosive expansion of this kind of varmint bullet should not be underestimated.
 
Suputin said:
Realizing that this is a very different bullet, I have shot .30 cal 110gr VMAX at coyotes. The bullet completely transited the body (6-8") and produced a 4" diameter exit hole. Upon inspection, the interior organs had been turned into a slurry that sloshed back and forth in the body cavity. The shear energy and explosive expansion of this kind of varmint bullet should not be underestimated.
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I always knew I never, ever wanted to get hit with a VMAX - and this just reinforces my belief. Good thing I didn't have breakfast yet... ;) <shudder>

Suputin said:
Ultimately this is the best answer and also the reason why the BLK has exploded in popularity. 223/556 in short barrels is generally less effective and ridiculously loud and flashy. The BLK solves all those problems in one go.
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BLK still really perks my interest. It's the availability/pricing of commercial ammo that has been my only reluctance. Subsonic sounds really interesting, though...
 
Hornady TAP = polycarbonate tipped bullet ...... just like the old gunner suggested. :rolleyes:

Can you imagine this going off inside your chest? G:

556_NATO_75_BTHP_WC_T2_4website.jpg
 
Just shoot Hornady SuperPerformance Match &b:
Holy AMAX batman!
Hyper accurate out of a box ammo and of course the AMAX round is devistating.
[youtube]4pjHNLdzfEE[/youtube]
Now if we could buy the holo point one's and add a mecury tip...
:rey2:nest:
 
I saw this thread a while back and thought I'd resurrect it after giving it some thought. I linked this in another post, but this was an interesting read from another forum on the very topic.

I don't know about SHTF, but it certainly is interesting information to know.

Here's the original post:

forums.second-amendment.org/index.php?topic=636.0

I don't understand what the fragmentation threshold represents exactly; the bullet fragments after it passes below the stated velocity? And above that velocity it continues to punch through? Or is it the other way around?
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Other way around. Velocity is an important component in the light 5.56's terminal ballistics. But before I get to that, let me explain something:

In the end, yaw is what causes fragmentation. All bullets will yaw, regardless of caliber, weight, length, construction, etc. However, all those factors will indeed dictate how bullets yaw, how rapidly they do it after contacting tissue, how many times they tumble, whether or not the jacket comes off or they break apart, etc. A very balanced bullet, for example (that is to say, one that has a centered center of gravity), wont yaw near as much as a boat tail with a long ogive, as is the case with many 5.56 rounds. Other factors such as precession (wobble in flight; a characteristic also shared amongst all bullets) determine, at least partially, how a bullet will yaw, but these things are relatively random and unpredictible...But I digress...

Because the 5.56 is long and has a very rearward center of gravity, it's easy to create conditions for the bullet to exhibit what you might call "excessive" yaw. And because the 5.56 is also skinny and thus not very strong, the centrifugal forces encountered by the bullet when it yaws literally cause it to explode. Bullets are meant to fly in a path with zero deviation to the bullets' axis after all, and it simply cannot take the forces brought upon it when it spins through a resistive material, such as human flesh. This condition of explosion is exacerbated all the more by the cannelure which causes a weak point in both the jacket and the lead core itself.

And here's the but...

But, in order for the bullet to fragment well, it needs to be cooking along as fast as possible. It's simple physics: the faster the bullet is moving, the greater the forces on the bullet during rotation. You feel the same force when going around a corner in your car. When you do it slowly, you don't feel the "pull" to the outside as much as you do when you're squealing your tires around the same turn. Take the turn fast enough and you can press your body up against the door...Or even skid off the road into the ditch or worse yet, roll the car!

The key point is, the faster, the greater the force. Because the 5.56 is such a skinny little booger, when it yaws doing 3,000 fps, the little bullet just can't take it and breaks apart like a grenade.

And you bring up the other but...

Quote from: redstarcluster on April 12, 2008, 11:13:58 PM
And on a side note for Recoil, I had never heard that 7.62 has worse impact performance at close range than 5.56 does. That's odd to me. Is that because of the FMJ? I thought that bigger and slower meant more effect?
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If we're talking about fragmentation here, that's correct: the 7.62 is a much worse performer than the 5.56. Keep in mind that the 5.56's design is fundimental in creating conditions for fragmentation and apply that knowledge to a comparison of the 7.62 projectile. Even though it's a similar design, typically a rebated boat tail Spitzer with a relatively long ogive, it's still a much "meatier" bullet. Since it's thicker, it's much stronger and therefore less inclined to come apart.

As far as velocity goes, it's also true that there's an inverse relationship between terminal performance of both rounds. Basically, the faster the 5.56 goes, the better it will fragment (a side effect of bullet dimensions/design). The slower the 5.56 goes, the more it will "ice pick" (pass straight through). Conversely, the faster the 7.62 goes, the more it will ice pick due to it's higher mass. The slower the 7.62 goes, the more it will yaw, distort, expand or otherwise do something other than maintain straight and level flight.

Remember, the 5.56 is a really s**tty round to shoot at people as far as mass (energy) and expansion (tissue damage) goes. Were it not for fragmentation, it'd be nearly worthless for use on humans. Fragmentation is what kills with the 5.56. This is why we see so many horror stories about the AR-15/M16's failure in combat: many of these shootings were done beyond the effective range of the cartridge. Keeping targets within 100-150 yards (before the bullet slows down) we see the performance of the round, and therefore the weapon, go up dramatically.

Conversely again, the 7.62 relies on it's extra mass and possibly expansion, depending on bullet design, to do it's killing. All things equal, bigger bullet means bigger wound cavity. Slow the bullet down enough so the mass isn't shoving the bullet through the target, and the bullet will tumble and go every which way, creating a wound cavity larger still.

Summed up, where the 5.56 relies on design to do it's killing, the 7.62 relies on mass. The 5.56 doesn't have the mass to damage tissue, but it's fragmentation creates a disproportionate wound cavity. The 7.62 doesn't fragment much, but it has extra mass to damage tissue, but that same mass will also carry the bullet through the target at high enough velocities.

Thus: 5.56 = best up close. 7.62 = best at distance.

This all reminds me of a story my grandfather told me of the "good ol' days." After he returned from the war retired from his many years in the Army, he got a job as a state highway engineer. One day, they were out surveying for a new road up along the U.S.-Canadian border when him and his two buddies saw a large buck up on top of a hill not even 100 yards away, looking down at them. Being that this was probably in the late 1950's and they were out west, everyone carried a gun in their vehicles--even work vehicles.

Well, this partner of my grandfather's had this new .30 caliber wunder-gun that he'd just had built around some super-duper high velocity, heavy bullet wildcat cartridge that, of course, he hand loaded for. So this guy runs to the car, pops the trunk and pulls out this shiny new virgin cannon that he was so proud of. Extracting a handfull of his uber-hot handloads, he filled the magazine, jacked one in, took aim and POW! Lots of fire, lots of noise, lots of recoil...Deer still standing.

Of course, my grandfather and the other guy were just laughing their asses off...This guy had been bragging this super rifle up for days and when he gets his chance at an easy kill, he misses. Not to be outdone of course, the guy cycles the bolt, takes aim again and BOOM! Lots of fire, lots of noise, lots of recoil...Deer still standing. Pissed off now, the guy throws another round into the chamber, aims and pulls the trigger. Same deal. The deer is just standing there wondering what the Hell these weirdos are doing.

Apparently the deer had enough after 3-5 shots (I can't recall exactly), and he trotted off down the other side of the hill. My grandfather and his buddy were laughing hysterically and this guy with the rifle is just flabbergasted. How could he miss? So out of curiosity, I guess, they trotted up this hill to see where the deer went. I reckon the guy wanted another lick at it. Once they got up there, they found a pool of blood right where the deer had been standing and a large blood trail leading down the other side. Naturally, this was very odd, so they followed it. Apparently they followed for some time, probably several hundred yards.

And guess what they found at the end of the trail?

They found one very dead buck with exactly as many holes in his sides as the old boy had fired at it.

This super hot .30 caliber wildcat was pushing those bullets along so fast that they never had a chance to expand and/or tumble and tear the deer's guts up. They just went in and out like the thing wasn't even in the way. As far as the deer was concerned, he probably felt a bit of a sting (the act of being shot in itself is relatively painless), but was none the wiser of his impending death and just stood there wondering about the strange fellows in the valley with that loud noise maker.

This humorous anecdote demonstrates precisely why the 7.62 needs to the chance to slow down a bit to be as effective as possible.

Hope this thorougly answers your question.
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Here is the data:

223-ballistics-1.jpg

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223-ballistics-3.jpg


I have LOTS AND LOTS of PMC Bronze - and after chronoing it - I found the average velocity from my 14.5" Nork is around 2700 FPS at the barrel...

I believe that ammo will be my range ammo.

Alternatively, it's nice to note that the surplus Norinco 5.56 chrono's nicely at around 3000 fps.

I might try doing read outs of other brands as well.
 
no brainer.... Hornady Steel Match!
Pay a little less for some great match ammo & don't have to worry about saving the brass... cuz their STEEL!!!
 
Any expanding bullet will kill humans all the same. We're not talking about hunting ...where you might stomp and swear about your deer running 300 yards into thick bush before dropping...we're talking about human enemies.

Any torso hit with an expanding 5.56/223 round is going to take a person out of the fight, and with the SHTF scenario lacking organised medical care, it will likely be fatal in short order if death wasn't immediate. Organ slurry, softball sized exit wounds, fragmenting bullets...I'm not picky about how my ammunition causes death, only that it does.

FMJ ammo, as posted earlier, is used by modern militaries that adhere to the conventions and rules of war, which severely restrict ammunition types.

Soft point, hollow point, poly-tips....choose your poison.

Personally, I'd leave the AR at home if I fled in a SHTF scenario. The Black Special will be at my side.
 
Jäger said:
Any expanding bullet will kill humans all the same. We're not talking about hunting ...where you might stomp and swear about your deer running 300 yards into thick bush before dropping...we're talking about human enemies.

Any torso hit with an expanding 5.56/223 round is going to take a person out of the fight, and with the SHTF scenario lacking organised medical care, it will likely be fatal in short order if death wasn't immediate. Organ slurry, softball sized exit wounds, fragmenting bullets...I'm not picky about how my ammunition causes death, only that it does.

FMJ ammo, as posted earlier, is used by modern militaries that adhere to the conventions and rules of war, which severely restrict ammunition types.

Soft point, hollow point, poly-tips....choose your poison.

Personally, I'd leave the AR at home if I fled in a SHTF scenario. The Black Special will be at my side.
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This reasoning seems absolutely backwards to me.

If I have to shoot at a human being, then I am facing an immediate lethal threat. Otherwise, I'm not shooting a person.

Therefore the stakes are WAY higher than just having them run off a few hundred feet and then die. In fact, whether they die or not is totally irrelevant to me. My concern is only that I eliminate whatever threat they pose, in the shortest possible time frame.

If they've sustained a hit that would allow a deer to keep functioning for ten minutes, they've sustained a hit that will allow THEM to keep functioning for ten minutes.

If they're motivated to continue, that is now a massive problem for me.

So the goal must be to make them non-functional as quickly as possible. In my opinion, then, it matters a lot more that you achieve a very quick stop on a person than on a deer.
 
misanthropist said:
This reasoning seems absolutely backwards to me.

If I have to shoot at a human being, then I am facing an immediate lethal threat. Otherwise, I'm not shooting a person.

Therefore the stakes are WAY higher than just having them run off a few hundred feet and then die. In fact, whether they die or not is totally irrelevant to me. My concern is only that I eliminate whatever threat they pose, in the shortest possible time frame.

If they've sustained a hit that would allow a deer to keep functioning for ten minutes, they've sustained a hit that will allow THEM to keep functioning for ten minutes.

If they're motivated to continue, that is now a massive problem for me.

So the goal must be to make them non-functional as quickly as possible. In my opinion, then, it matters a lot more that you achieve a very quick stop on a person than on a deer.
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IF they're motivated, it won't matter what wonder bullet you tag them with, shot placement will decide whether or not their determination will be of any value.

TDC
 
TDC said:
IF they're motivated, it won't matter what wonder bullet you tag them with, shot placement will decide whether or not their determination will be of any value.

TDC
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Shot placement is of course critical but if the thread is about the best bullet, it's about giving the shooter the best possible chance for a good outcome.

There will still be a performance differential in bullets, so although only CNS hits guarantee instant stop, and loss of blood pressure to the brain is the next best thing, an ideal bullet will have a combination of penetration and expansion that gives the shooter the best chance of doing the maximum damage to vital organs, to speed the loss of BP.
 
SHTF? Any ammo is good ammo. Should have brought a longer barrel though for a .223, or a different caliber. :p

Hornady TAP or some reloads with a V-MAX bullet would be a very good choice given your parameters though.
 
misanthropist said:
Shot placement is of course critical but if the thread is about the best bullet, it's about giving the shooter the best possible chance for a good outcome.

There will still be a performance differential in bullets, so although only CNS hits guarantee instant stop, and loss of blood pressure to the brain is the next best thing, an ideal bullet will have a combination of penetration and expansion that gives the shooter the best chance of doing the maximum damage to vital organs, to speed the loss of BP.
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I agree 100%. However, selecting the "perfect" bullet only adds to the odds for favorable performance. IMO, the targets one would likely encounter locally will not be determined to do you harm. Like most current day scumbags, they're looking for easy scores with low to no risk to themselves. Even a sub par FMJ M193 out of a 10.5" barrel will most likely deter/end a threat regardless of shot placement. The desperate threats are motivated by survival, not a willingness to die.

TDC
 
TDC said:
IMO, the targets one would likely encounter locally will not be determined to do you harm. The desperate threats are motivated by survival, not a willingness to die.

TDC
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Not sure I agree here. In a long term SHTF scenario (f**k I hate that term) a lot of the real threats will come from those that have run out of their psychotropic meds. I wouldn't like to take a guess on how motivated a person is or isn't, in that unlikely scenario. Sorry for getting off topic.
 
Clobbersauras said:
Not sure I agree here. In a long term SHTF scenario (f**k I hate that term) a lot of the real threats will come from those that have run out of their psychotropic meds. I wouldn't like to take a guess on how motivated a person is or isn't, in that unlikely scenario. Sorry for getting off topic.
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If it goes "long term" those individuals will have run out of meds, starved to death, been shot/beat by others or vacated the area long before that point.

Back to the original topic at hand. There are great bullet styles/designs that would be optimal out of short barrels, but sourcing enough of said ammo to both practice/train with and "stock pile" presents a problem. Not to mention you likely won't find much of it around when you "scrounge" for more. If you could choose your poison then go for it, otherwise run whatever is available and focus on good hits.

TDC
 
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