Best smokeless for antiques? Unique vs 2400 vs SR4759

41 Colt

41 Colt

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I'm currently shooting .41 Colt but will be adding .38-55 to that soon. I load Unique and stay below original velocities for that reason. I currently get about 680fps.

It has been said on here numerous times 2400 is the fastest smokeless powder you should be using as it has a pressure curve very similar to that of real black powder.

IMR SR4759 is another SM powder which is supposed to be very similar to BP. One source said it's not suitable for pistol cartridges but I have heard of it being used in .357 Magnum.

I'm wondering if it's worth switching from Unique to either of these, preferable just one which would work in both .41 Colt and .38-55. What kind of performance should I expect?

I'd like to get more velocity out of the .41 while keeping pressure levels conservative. Unique will work in the .38-55 as well but is a little on the slow side too.
 
Well, based on my Lyman's Pistol Reloading Handbook, Unique is the all around best performer in regards to pressures vs. actual fps, hence why I never experimented with anything else for smokeless antique loading. With Unique, you can load starting loads at well below 10,000psi while other powders can't do that (according to the data I have).

Another thing with Unique that I like is that it's quite bulky, therefore hard to screw up with (such as a double load), as it will more than likely overfill the case if you do that.


As for the 4759 and 2400, they are much better suited for rifle reloading, not pistol (I hear Trail Boss is a good antique pistol powder though, but never tried)... Here's a table I've compiled (from old data) regarding smokeless loads in a .577/450 Martini-Henry cartridge. It might give you a bit of an idea :

577-450LoadDataresized.jpg
 
2400 likes a big long case like the 45 colt or 45 schofield and up.

I never tryed it in a 41 LC before but in a 45 schofield its a killer, i like it.
 
For the same velocity, case and bullet, Unique will give you a higher peak pressure than 2400. This is fine, provided you keep the peak pressure below whatever value is considered safe. The downside, is that in doing that you will have to settle for velocities that are lower than traditional black powder velocities (though this may not always be the case depending upon the strength of the firearm and what peak pressure it can tolerate). The upside to Unique is that since it has a much faster burn rate than 2400, it also has a much higher peak pressure (all other things being equal) so it tends to obturate the bullet better resulting in better accuracy for cast bullets. A lot of fellows swear by Unique for accuracy. There are safe Unique loads to use and if they work well, then there may be no reason to consider other powders. For my vintage guns, I find that 2400 is one of the best powders for the kind of pressures and velocity I like to obtain. Blue Dot is also supposed to have a pressure curve very similar to FFFg, whereas 2400 pressure curve is closer to FFg. I also use SR4759, to give a bulkier load, but I'm moving away from it because it does not measure as well as 2400 does.
 
woodchopper said:
... but I've settled on IMR4227 38grns powder with wadding ...
Click to expand...
Wadding with IMR 4227 is good. I was developing a load for my 45-60 with IMR 4227. I was aiming down, shooting over a chronograph into a stump. Then I took it to the range and was amazed that the loads were chronographing over 150 fps faster. It turned out that IMR 4227 was very position sensitive, giving a low velocity when the powder was against the bullet and a high velocity when it was more in the middle or close to the primer. Wadding would keep the powder always in the same position. 5744 is not nearly so position sensitive, but can be a little slow for the 45 Schofield giving a lot of unburnt powder.
 
762mm said:
Well, based on my Lyman's Pistol Reloading Handbook, Unique is the all around best performer in regards to pressures vs. actual fps, hence why I never experimented with anything else for smokeless antique loading. With Unique, you can load starting loads at well below 10,000psi while other powders can't do that (according to the data I have).

snip
577-450LoadDataresized.jpg
Click to expand...

That data sheet should be a sticky.
Any .44 russian loads?

I have been using Unique since 1966 (30-30 and 110 grain cast bullets)
Unique has been around since 1896 or so and according to the people where they make it they have a batch that was made before 1900 and tested every year or so for pressure. Apparently there has been no deterioration.

I am a bit worried about unique because of the faster burn and the sharp initial pressure spike..
 
DANCESWITHEMPTIES said:
Got 2 (10oz.:eek:) containers of it, but just got my dies. So I haven't started loading with it yet.... If someone doesn't chime in I'll p.m. you went I get going.
Click to expand...

that would be great!
everything a fella wants including a burst of smoke without the extra cleanup.
if it's anything like the reviews,and hype on the sight it will be all a fella needs for BPC Irons...


what did it cost for a can and where did you find it?
 
that's for muzzle loader use...
they recommend mag primers for BPCI though iirc

for anyone interested:
Code: 
http://www.blackhorn209.com/home/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_54/ai_n28027473/
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_55/ai_n31881939/
 
BrotherRockeye said:
why is that?
Click to expand...

Well it seems to be working in my mle 1892's pretty well and I already have a few pounds of it so I'm just gunna stick with it.

I liked the idea of a non corrosive black powder substitute but its not really made for what I intended for.

But If I get into muzzle loaders I'll know what poison to choose.
 
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Tyockell18 said:
Well it seems to be working in my mle 1892's pretty well and I already have a few pounds of it so I'm just gunna stick with it.

I liked the idea of a non corrosive black powder substitute but its not really made for what I intended for.

But If I get into muzzle loaders I'll know what poison to choose.
Click to expand...

By all means use what you have,I use green dot in my 44/45 loads,but I think you misunderstood the intended purpose of the propellant...

if you follow the links you'll see it is made specifically for muzzle loaders and Black Powder Cartridge Firearms...Revolvers...Rifles...
from the sight-
Blackhorn 209 is the first and only noncorrosive propellant made for muzzleloaders and black powder cartridges. It is engineered to consistently shoots at higher velocities and with greater accuracy than any other muzzleloader powder available today. In fact, if you compare the benefits of Blackhorn 209, you will quickly see there are 10 areas where Blackhorn 209 simply smokes the competition:

1. Superior Ballistics and Unbeatable Accuracy
2. Noncorrosive and Low Residue
3. No Swabbing Between Shots
4. Easy Breech Plug Removal
5. No Special Primers Required
6. Not Affected by Temperature or Humidity
7. Uniform Size - "Good to the last shot"
8. Immediate Cleaning Not Necessary
9. Cleans with Regular Solvents
10. Extended Shelf Life
Click to expand...

afaik an 8mm lebel revolver is a Black Powder Cartridge Revolver is it not..?
 
BrotherRockeye said:
By all means use what you have,I use green dot in my 44/45 loads,but I think you misunderstood the intended purpose of the propellant...

if you follow the links you'll see it is made specifically for muzzle loaders and Black Powder Cartridge Firearms...Revolvers...Rifles...
from the sight-


afaik an 8mm lebel revolver is a Black Powder Cartridge Revolver is it not..?
Click to expand...

Yeah first cartridges were BP but switched over to smokeless relatively early on. The fiocchi loads are around 880 fps, but I like keeping my hand loads around 700 fps or so.

That sounds very interesting, you are quite correct I misunderstood the intended design. I went through the summary and it does seem like a good product for my needs.

Its quite a god send actually, a non corrosive clean burning BP subsititute, up until today I thought it didnt exist on the market.

Could you classify this as a Bulk smokeless like the stuff they made 100 years back.
 
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if you go here:
Code: 
http://www.blackhorn209.com/home/
you will find all your answers.
there is load data here:
Code: 
http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/b209blackpowdercartridgedata.pdf
I'm gonna try and find some to test out.
 
Win 38-55 said:
Wadding with IMR 4227 is good. I was developing a load for my 45-60 with IMR 4227. I was aiming down, shooting over a chronograph into a stump. Then I took it to the range and was amazed that the loads were chronographing over 150 fps faster. It turned out that IMR 4227 was very position sensitive, giving a low velocity when the powder was against the bullet and a high velocity when it was more in the middle or close to the primer. Wadding would keep the powder always in the same position. 5744 is not nearly so position sensitive, but can be a little slow for the 45 Schofield giving a lot of unburnt powder.
Click to expand...

Yes I noticed some variance early in my load development, I'm also using magnum primers :eek: :D

and using TP for wadding, guys were razzing my on my confetti gun, till they checked the targets :D
 
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