Best you've ever done with your M14 pattern rifle for consistent accuracy

[Ardent]

I probably have "invested", ie. blown $10,000 on M14s over the years, typically chasing accuracy. Built them with the Douglas match heavy barrel, TRW bolts, NM flash hiders, no flash hider, and even one where truly everything was mint TRW except the receiver. Only major thing I haven't yet tried is the Krieger barrel.

My problem is, and I'm just starting to see I'm likely barking up the wrong tree, is not one of them has consistently beaten 2 MOA in real life. Yep, can shoot 1" groups, but certainly not everytime. Overall 2 MOA was a real life average for the better builds, and I can shoot. I'm comparing it too hard to my bolt guns, I'm sure, but just recently I bought a Ruger Mini-30, factory, that outperformed any of my M14s for accuracy and I really had to ask myself what I was doing.

Can the M14 become a consistent 0.5 to 1 MOA performer? Who's done it and can really shoot those groups every time out to 600 yards? It's just too heavy and clunky to be a black rifle substitute, and too inaccurate to be the same weight as my 0.5 MOA medium-heavy bolt rifles. I haven't tried the M1A's, and that may well be my last kick at the can. I really love how the M14 looks, it handles not too badly as well, I just get depressed by the groups it produces. With 5 round mags in Canada I really have to ask myself what it offers over even a Ruger Gunsite Scout that shoots better and weighs less.

Your experiences? May need a flame suit for this thread.

 

[Skullboy]

I probably have "invested", ie. blown $10,000 on M14s over the years, typically chasing accuracy. Built them with the Douglas match heavy barrel, TRW bolts, NM flash hiders, no flash hider, and even one where truly everything was mint TRW except the receiver. Only major thing I haven't yet tried is the Krieger barrel.

My problem is, and I'm just starting to see I'm likely barking up the wrong tree, is not one of them has consistently beaten 2 MOA in real life. Yep, can shoot 1" groups, but certainly not everytime. Overall 2 MOA was a real life average for the better builds, and I can shoot. I'm comparing it too hard to my bolt guns, I'm sure, but just recently I bought a Ruger Mini-30, factory, that outperformed any of my M14s for accuracy and I really had to ask myself what I was doing.

Can the M14 become a consistent 0.5 to 1 MOA performer? Who's done it and can really shoot those groups every time out to 600 yards? It's just too heavy and clunky to be a black rifle substitute, and too inaccurate to be the same weight as my 0.5 MOA medium-heavy bolt rifles. I haven't tried the M1A's, and that may well be my last kick at the can. I really love how the M14 looks, it handles not too badly as well, I just get depressed by the groups it produces. With 5 round mags in Canada I really have to ask myself what it offers over even a Ruger Gunsite Scout that shoots better and weighs less.

Your experiences? May need a flame suit for this thread.

I owned one M14 type rifle that was a consistent sub 1 MOA shooter...............that rifle was built by Hungry......

It was all TRW/USGI with a Douglas heavy 1 in 10" twist 6 groove barrel. Unitized gas cylinder........NM op rod spring guide......4.5 lbs trigger.......the works. It sat in a USGI fiberglass stock that Hungry had built the front end up on in order to stiffen it up....steel bedded........ It wasn't a beauty queen, but it sure could shoot!!!!!

The Mark 14 Mod 0 EBR clone I built shot around the 1 - 1.5 MOA mark.......I sold it off before I had it fine tuned......

These rifles take a lot of time/tunig/$$$$$ to make them tight shooters............and it can get frustrating at time.......and expensive.......

Unless you reload you own, you will not attain peak accuracy.........

The Mini 30........well, I think you will be again disappointed once you start trying to reach out to longer distances...........

 

[Savage]

I still own my M1A as far as money spent I have really kept track I have used the rifle in F Class matchesout to 900m against bolt guns and have held my own .It has a lot of work done to it and as Hungry says it is one of the few M14 rifles that rings twice letting the action go forward and when you pull the trigger .It delivers about 3/4 MOA consistently using both FED 175 gr GM and M118 LR
The Springfield M1A has a USGI bolt (Springfield) USGI trigger group,USAMTU NM op rod guide, TRW oprod , USAMTU NM flash hider, unitized gas cylinder and a NM spec piston Krieger 1-10 match heavy barrel match cut chamber as well as a McMillan M1 stock

 

[big bear]

plain ol'Norc

I've got a plain ol 200?( No year number on receiver), Norino m305, bought 4 years ago from Marstar, accuracy tune up by the Dr. ( unitizing gas system and springs package deal). Have a Basset mounted Leupold 3-10 VariXIII on it. With some lazy man loads (Israeli primed brass IMI israeli letters headstamp 74 and 76, bullets had been pulled for ? reason, brass bought cheap a few years ago), I sort through, load those that don't have split necks,chamfer case mouths to aid in bullet searing, don't trim to length or check length, load up Vihtivouri N135 41gr (I throw charge, then check on scale), Nosler 155gr HPBT , 2.8" OAL, Lee taper crimp. I get consistent ,<1" groups off bench at 100meters. Usually ragged holes with a single outlier, whole group , flier included is less than 1". I think the flier is the brass, some of the necks aren't quite straight ( bent when they pulled the bullets, by straight, I mean the necks are not vertical, they tilt to the side by a few degrees, eyeball measurement)<like I said, lazy man reloads).
Needless to say , I'm happy with this. shoots better than most of my bolt guns (except my SAKOs)
Recommend Basset mount. Got the medium height one, had to take it off when I took bolt off to replace firing pin (chipped from what I think was damage from pierced primer, soft primer (in my opinion) S&B FMJ. Put scope back own (simply screw balt down), NO shift in ZERO at all!

 

[sobo4303]

With my humble modifications, my rifle shoots a consistent grouping just under 2". I posted a target a while back when I benchrested, cooled down no wind, open sights at 300 yards. perfect situation and was still about 1.75 moa equivalent.

But you know what, when I take that baby out to shoot friendly competition, it is 100% reliable and it is my mistakes that cause me to lose out on the pot. I am 100% happy with it's performance because it is well beyond my expectations.

 

[Ardent]

I've got a plain ol 200?( No year number on receiver), Norino m305, bought 4 years ago from Marstar, accuracy tune up by the Dr. ( unitizing gas system and springs package deal). Have a Basset mounted Leupold 3-10 VariXIII on it. With some lazy man loads (Israeli primed brass IMI israeli letters headstamp 74 and 76, bullets had been pulled for ? reason, brass bought cheap a few years ago), I sort through, load those that don't have split necks,chamfer case mouths to aid in bullet searing, don't trim to length or check length, load up Vihtivouri N135 41gr (I throw charge, then check on scale), Nosler 155gr HPBT , 2.8" OAL, Lee taper crimp. I get consistent ,<1" groups off bench at 100meters. Usually ragged holes with a single outlier, whole group , flier included is less than 1". I think the flier is the brass, some of the necks aren't quite straight ( bent when they pulled the bullets, by straight, I mean the necks are not vertical, they tilt to the side by a few degrees, eyeball measurement)<like I said, lazy man reloads).
Needless to say , I'm happy with this. shoots better than most of my bolt guns (except my SAKOs)
Recommend Basset mount. Got the medium height one, had to take it off when I took bolt off to replace firing pin (chipped from what I think was damage from pierced primer, soft primer (in my opinion) S&B FMJ. Put scope back own (simply screw balt down), NO shift in ZERO at all!

Forgive me but with the money I've dropped into them trying I'll have to assume this is the internet til I see match results. You really should show up at a match with that rifle as odds are you'd win and have it papered. Sub MOA every time with decades old berdan primers and mil brass in a Chinese semi is beyond incredible, not saying it can't happen, just I'd have to see it.

I'm sure there'll be others saying they get less than an inch with their Chinese stock or near stock M305, and it could well be not calling anyone a liar- just I'd need to see it or match results. I've tried too hard for too long and have never seen an M14 do that even with thousands into it. Savage has an example I believe will get you closer to that, but even through the Krieger, premium ammo, and everything else I don't think he's claiming less than 1", let alone one holers with a single flier, all day everyday with old Berdan brass.

 

[RifleDude]

I installed a Douglas Heavy barrel in mine. My favourite load is 155gr Amax, full-sized IVI brass, WLR primer, OAL: 2.855" and 44gr of Varget. If I do my part, I can shoot sub-MOA groups all day. BTW, I also replaced nearly all other components with USGI ones (from my converted full-auto TRW M-14). The major exception is the op-rod and receiver which are Norico. The headspace is very tight at 1.631". Full length sizing is a must for me. The groups are 5-shot groups at 100y. The first group had a flyer and was most likely my doing Many thanks to Hungry who helped me tremendously in this project.

 

[ArtyMan]

I installed a Douglas Heavy barrel in mine. My favourite load is 155gr Amax, full-sized IVI brass, WLR primer, OAL: 2.855" and 44gr of Varget. If I do my part, I can shoot sub-MOA groups all day. BTW, I also replaced nearly all other components with USGI ones (from my converted full-auto TRW M-14). The major exception is the op-rod and receiver which are Norico. The headspace is very tight at 1.631". Full length sizing is a must for me. The groups are 5-shot groups at 100y. The first group had a flyer and was most likely my doing Many thanks to Hungry who helped me tremendously in this project.

Wow! What bipod are you using?

 

[Tengoo]

I probably have "invested", ie. blown $10,000 on M14s over the years, typically chasing accuracy... not one of them has consistently beaten 2 MOA in real life...Overall 2 MOA was a real life average for the better builds, and I can shoot...I just get depressed by the groups it produces.

It sounds to me that sub-MOA accuracy in an M14 is a matter of luck in the assembly of the individual rifle, not something you can create by formula.

I can understand your disappointment not getting the results you want despite your investment, but jeez...2 MOA is pretty respectable accuracy in my book. If I wanted better than that I'd just buy a heavy-barrel FNAR and tinker with my handloads.

 

[Sluggo_m14]

My box stock M305 seems to keep about 3-3.5" group at 100 yds with MFS 145 gr when shooting off a rest using the stock iron sights.

 

[big bear]

it's the truth Ruth

Forgive me but with the money I've dropped into them trying I'll have to assume this is the internet til I see match results. You really should show up at a match with that rifle as odds are you'd win and have it papered. Sub MOA every time with decades old berdan primers and mil brass in a Chinese semi is beyond incredible, not saying it can't happen, just I'd have to see it.

I'm sure there'll be others saying they get less than an inch with their Chinese stock or near stock M305, and it could well be not calling anyone a liar- just I'd need to see it or match results. I've tried too hard for too long and have never seen an M14 do that even with thousands into it. Savage has an example I believe will get you closer to that, but even through the Krieger, premium ammo, and everything else I don't think he's claiming less than 1", let alone one holers with a single flier, all day everyday with old Berdan brass.

The brass is not Berdan primed brass for starts, it's Boxer primed. I got two different lots of this brass over the years,I use it for easy, quick reloads for practice and plinking. Thick military brass, so with work (taking out primer crimp, trimmering,for correct length, etc . it's good for reloading for semiautos.)I'm bragging on the rifle not me, so no offense taken by your skepticism and none intended to be given by reply.The rifle has GI plastic stock, not bedded, Match spring guide and no other refinements. I'm too old now for match shooting, used to do it though. These are bench rest groups. I'm surprised by how well it shoots too. I've got another with all GI parts, Winchester barrel and the groups are not nearly that good with same ammo. When my son comes for a visit,I'll try and get him to take some pics of the targets and post them.I've been shooting a long time now and I was astounded at how well the rifle shoots. As for the match shooting, shooting off a bench and match shooting are a whole different thing, those run downs are a killer on old knees, and being hypoxic doesn't help much either,so not likely I'd win many badges now.
I've got some barrel cleaning and reloading to do, didn't mean to start a fuss. Suggest you all get out and shoot the heck out of your toys. I want to wear mine out before that big D day comes and they all get handed down or sold for too little to some guy I probably wouldn't have even liked

 

[Ardent]

Beautiful RifleDude, and it does this each and everytime out? I ask because mine could produce groups like that, once in awhile, but it wasn't group after group. I always wonder if the groups we see online at the cream of the crop, logic would tell you that's what people post.

Tengoo it depends what you're after I suppose. I get a lot of opportunities to shoot far and 2 MOA just doesn't come close to cutting it, it starts to look downright awful by 500 yards. If AR10's were non-restricted I'd be laughing all the way to the flatlands. One of things I noticed with my M14s, not a problem with RifleDude's it seems, is my groups always open drastically at 3 or 4 rounds into a reasonably slow shot string. The mix of having a semi, but starting to produce patterns not groups by the time you're halfway through the second 5 round mag, has also been discouraging.

I just like the looks of the M14 too much to give up on it just yet. Clearly, some guys are showing promise too.

 

[M14Doctor]

Didn't Hungry witness a few sub moa norinco's at a private event not too far back? I believe the magic was is their handloads. Not sure what had been done by way of tweaking, hopefully Hungry can tell us more.
I have produced a few sub or damn near sub moa M14 type rifles. I do own one as well, though I won't make any claims without having someone run some video of it actually happening on several occasions.
There's so many factors involved that I truly believe that even with the cream of the crop parts and the best hands in the industry(not me ) , consistantly producing true sub moa 600 yard rifles on this platform would be pure luck

 

[RifleDude]

Wow! What bipod are you using?

Harris HBR

 

[liberty]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardent
I probably have "invested", ie. blown $10,000 on M14s over the years, typically chasing accuracy... not one of them has consistently beaten 2 MOA in real life...Overall 2 MOA was a real life average for the better builds, and I can shoot...I just get depressed by the groups it produces.

Ardent, as much as I like the M14, I think accurizing the M14 it is a situation of diminishing returns.

That is, there comes a point where peak accuracy is achieved and more $$ may or may not produce better results.

I love shooting mine and keep resisting the urge to rebarrel, bed, match tune with USGI parts etc.

I have shot hundreds of rounds through mine and honestly it is a consistent 2 moa gun.

I have shot groups that I can cover with a loonie at 100yds. more than once but it is rare and I wouldn't claim mine is a sub moa because it is not typical of what mine will shoot consistently.

You also have to remember this is the internet so sub moa groups from M14's all day long need to be taken with a grain of salt, just as 1/4moa all day long bolt guns do too.

 

[M14Doctor]

I think a MOA challenge should be started
Rules: rifle must be an M14/M1A type. All makes models, optics and accessories allowed.
Video footage mandatory
1 clean target down range @ 100 for each 5 shot group.

Camera should be on and rolling continuously from target placement to target removal. Target should be held visible as it is walked directly into close up view of the camera.

I'm up for the challenge, Rugerman and I have talked about this very topic and concluded it would be the only way to satisfy the "internet".
Whaddya think?

 

[Ardent]

Ardent, as much as I like the M14, I think accurizing the M14 it is a situation of diminishing returns.

That is, there comes a point where peak accuracy is achieved and more $$ may or may not produce better results.

I love shooting mine and keep resisting the urge to rebarrel, bed, match tune with USGI parts etc.

I have shot hundreds of rounds through mine and honestly it is a consistent 2 moa gun.

I have shot groups that I can cover with a loonie at 100yds. more than once but it is rare and I wouldn't claim mine is a sub moa because it is not typical of what mine will shoot consistently.

You also have to remember this is the internet so sub moa groups from M14's all day long need to be taken with a grain of salt, just as 1/4moa all day long bolt guns do too.

Enjoying this thread, your post echoes my experiences. I could post targets that are really tight, but if I fired 20 or 50 groups of 5 rounds, not just a couple, they'd average out around 2 MOA with my best build.

M14Doc, thanks for weighing in, hopefully Hungry can add his experiences.

Angus

 

[liberty]

I think a MOA challenge should be started
Rules: rifle must be an M14/M1A type. All makes models, optics and accessories allowed.
Video footage mandatory
1 clean target down range @ 100 for each 5 shot group.

Haha,,,good idea doc and let's make it an aggregate, that is 5 goups of 5 shots each at 100yds and 300yds

So 50 rounds are needed, 25 rounds at 100yds and 25 rds at 300yds to demonstrate the true accuracy of each rifle.

Should separate the sub moa all day long M14's from the weedwackers...

Oh yeah, "fliers" are included in the group...

 

[carbonrod]

Enjoying this thread, your post echoes my experiences. I could post targets that are really tight, but if I fired 20 or 50 groups of 5 rounds, not just a couple, they'd average out around 2 MOA with my best build.

It is so important to shoot these large round count groups with a rifle with as many moving parts as the m14 IMO. It is why the spec was 3 back to back 10 rnd groups.

This is also a great thread on it:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/279218_The_Trouble_With_3_Shot_Groups.html

 

[Skullboy]

Ardent, as much as I like the M14, I think accurizing the M14 it is a situation of diminishing returns.

This sums it up pretty well..........I love the M14 and believe it is a great rifle.......a Battle rifle........They can be made to be very accurate, but it is not very cost effective.........