Big game..big talk
- Thread starter 303carbine
- Start date
PHARAOH2 is really dead on, and the list goes on and on.
We the people who shoot, hunt and fish are generally known as sportsmen, oops, sport people. And without doubt, the worst of any recreational, or hobbiest group, for practicing snobbery and hurling insults at each other.
For a few years I wouldn't use Nosler bullets, because of a smart ass who, when people were talking about hunting and the oppertunity came up, would, with the sneariest voice, say, "I use nothing but Nosler." Even pronouncing it, "Nausler," for more effect.
Fortunately, like everything else, not everyone is like that. There are some mighty fine sportsmen in our group, but enough of the type that looks down their nose at us normal mortals, that they tend to spoil it for everyone.
Even on these threads, I noticed a knowledgable person who obvioulsy had good information on products most of us knew nothing about. But he blew the whole thing by treating us that didn't know about the new products, as complete imbeciles!
We the people who shoot, hunt and fish are generally known as sportsmen, oops, sport people. And without doubt, the worst of any recreational, or hobbiest group, for practicing snobbery and hurling insults at each other.
For a few years I wouldn't use Nosler bullets, because of a smart ass who, when people were talking about hunting and the oppertunity came up, would, with the sneariest voice, say, "I use nothing but Nosler." Even pronouncing it, "Nausler," for more effect.
Fortunately, like everything else, not everyone is like that. There are some mighty fine sportsmen in our group, but enough of the type that looks down their nose at us normal mortals, that they tend to spoil it for everyone.
Even on these threads, I noticed a knowledgable person who obvioulsy had good information on products most of us knew nothing about. But he blew the whole thing by treating us that didn't know about the new products, as complete imbeciles!
Hmmmm...a post about how bad it is to hurl insults and then you hurl an insult.......
Mark this one down as a good example of irony!
Funny, I never considered you an imbecile or anyone else who didn't know about these slugs and was genuinely interested in learning about them. For those that wanted to argue about something they knew nothing about...well if the shoe fits I guess.
Here is an artical about the new generation of the shot gun or Slug Gun. That is if anyone cares.
The guys that know the difference have done it!
The 200-yard slug gun has come of age!
SHOTGUNS AND SLUGS are a short-range combination. A look at the ballistics tables in any ammunition catalog will tell you so. Most of them give numbers out to only 125 yards, and for most slugs, even that is stretching it.
But the situation is changing and changing rapidly. The effective range of shotgun slugs is growing almost by the day. A field that was a ballistic backwater until a decade ago is suddenly one of the most interesting areas of research for a ballistician. Ammunition makers are racing to develop slugs for a high-tech age.
The reason? Demand, motivated by regulation. More and more jurisdictions are mandating shotgun-only deer seasons.
"Half of all the deer shot every year are taken with shotguns," says Remington research engineer Vince Scarlata, "and of those, I would say 90 percent are shot with slugs. That is a huge market. And, with the developments we are seeing, shotgun-slug research has become an exciting field."
Continue article
Advertisement
All the research in the world, however cannot repeal the laws of physics, and it is those immutable laws that have, for more than a century, made shotgun slugs a 100-yard proposition.
Shotguns as we know them descended directly from muskets-smoothbores that fired both charges of pellets and single-- round lead balls. These single projectiles, popularly called "pumpkin balls," worked well enough out to about 50 yards. With the arrival of choke-boring, however, even that minimal effectiveness was reduced. With balls made small enough to fit through even the tightest choke, accuracy fell off alarmingly.
In the 1930s, a shotgunner named Karl M. Foster developed the slug that now bears his name. Cup shaped, with a hollow skirt that would expand to fit the bore, the Foster remained one of the two dominant slug designs for half a century. Winchester began loading them in 1936 and still does. The other design was the European Brenneke, which employed a lead cylinder with a fiber wad attached to the base. Both the Foster and the Brenneke have lead vanes which impart a slight spin for stability, but do little to enhance accuracy.
The Foster and the Brenneke are effective out to about 100 yards. Beyond that, you run into several problems. The biggest is that you lose accuracy. Right behind that is loss of killing power. And, as the slug sheds velocity, it begins to plunge like a stone. In the search for a slug that is effective out to the unheard of distance of 200 yards, these are still the three obstacles that must be overcome.
Every engineer in the field agrees that a gun-and-slug combination that is effective beyond 150 yards will have a fully rifled barrel and will shoot sabot slugs. Smoothbores and Foster slugs will never cut it. Let's look at each of these three obstacles individually from a gun and projectile point of view.
Accuracy
For deer, you need to be able to keep all your shots in a 6-inch circle at 200 yards.
The major challenge in this area lies with the ammunition, not with the gun. It is a simple matter to put a rifled barrel on most standard shotguns and attach a scope that allows precision aiming. Put on a 2.5X or 4X scope and you have the accuracy you need.
A sabot slug then gives you a combination of rotation for stability and a decent ballistic coefficient. Sabots have been around for a couple of centuries. They were first used in muskets. The word is French for the wooden shoes that were common in the 18th century, and were so named because the first sabots came in two parts, each resembling a shoe. The musketeer enclosed his bullet inside the two halves, and pushed the whole thing down the barrel.
Today's shotgun sabots are made of synthetic material that hugs the rifling, imparting a high rate of spin without exceeding the standard shotgun breech-- pressure limit. When it exits the muzzle, the sabot falls away, leaving the slug rotating like a rifle bullet. Using sabots, shotguns can be made to fire slugs that closely resemble rifle bullets from a .45-70 or similar cartridge. They can be jacketed or have hollow points. Most important, they have a much higher ballistic coefficient than standard slugs.
Typically, the Foster slug has a coeffident of around .07-so abysmal that most ballistics charts do not give the velocity and trajectory figures for it (.09 is as low as most of them go). The new Remington solid-copper slug has a coefficient of .211, while their newest bonded slug has a coefficient of around .300. Suddenly, we have a projectile capable of both long-range accuracy and velocity retention.
Killing Power
With the old slugs, velocity was shed so quickly after 100 yards that penetration suffered. With sabot slugs, most of which weigh about an ounce, the penetration and killing power will be there at 200 yards provided you actually hit the target. Expansion is generally not a consideration as it is with rifle bullets. Even the smaller sabot slugs have such a wide diameter (typically .50 caliber) that they do not depend on expansion to provide punch, although the newer sabot slugs like the Winchester Partition Gold and the bonded Remington do provide expansion capability if there is sufficient retained velocity.
Remington's solid-copper slug has a muzzle velocity of 1,550 fps and a very respectable energy of 2,334 ft.-lbs. At 100 yards, the energy has dropped to 1,600 ft.-- lbs., and at 200, with velocity down to 1,096 fps, energy is only 1,167 ft.-lbs-just enough killing power for a deer-sized animal.
Trajectory
The real problem as velocity drops is the increasingly steep trajectory of the bullet. Between 175 yards and 200 yards, a standard slug may drop 10 inches! This being the case, a range miscalculation of as little as 25 yards can cause a miss even if everything else is right on.
Fortunately, a great deal of deer hunting today is done from stands. A hunter can use a laser rangefinder to pinpoint the distance to visible objects. When a deer appears, he knows almost to the foot how far he is shooting. Since sabots date from the era of muskets, why not use range stakes, which were also employed by Wellington's infantry?
Looking at these three areas, it becomes obvious that the best way to extend the range of a slug is to increase the muzzle velocity. With projectiles that better retain velocity, you get more downrange energy and a flatter trajectory. Unfortunately, the governing factor here is pressure. Shotguns are built to withstand maximum-breech pressures of 11,500 psi, whereas a deer cartridge in the .30-06 class will take 50,000 psi.
The 3-inch 12 gauge works at 14,000 psi. While it has slightly superior ballistics, the longer shell does not offer a great range advantage, nor much potential for improvement.
"The extra room in the case means you need a bigger wad," says Scarlata. "It does not mean you can stuff in a great deal more powder."
Engineers working to develop better slug guns must do so within those pressure limitations. Otherwise, what they create may not be a shotgun at all.
"There is no real definition of a shotgun used by the game departments," says Scarlata, "But a good rule of thumb is that if a firearm uses a cartridge that can be fired from a standard shotgun, then it is a shotgun.
"When we first introduced the sabot slug, a half-dozen states threatened to disallow it. Their objections were withdrawn when we showed that the slug started to tumble at about 225 yards, which limited the range severely. Our new slugs will not start to tumble until about 275 yards, but that is still close by rifle standards."
Ammunition companies always have to keep that fact in mind: Shotguns are mandated because they are short-range weapons. Develop a combination that stretches the range too far and you run the risk of having the gun outlawed.
Given the limitations on the ammunition, 200 yards would seem to be the extreme we should look for in a slug/gun combination, and then only under conditions where ranges can be measured accurately. But consider: Just 10 years ago, 200 yards looked like a pipe dream. Now we are there, and new developments are coming thick and fast.
Copyright Sports Afield, Inc. Jun 2002
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved
The guys that know the difference have done it!
The 200-yard slug gun has come of age!
SHOTGUNS AND SLUGS are a short-range combination. A look at the ballistics tables in any ammunition catalog will tell you so. Most of them give numbers out to only 125 yards, and for most slugs, even that is stretching it.
But the situation is changing and changing rapidly. The effective range of shotgun slugs is growing almost by the day. A field that was a ballistic backwater until a decade ago is suddenly one of the most interesting areas of research for a ballistician. Ammunition makers are racing to develop slugs for a high-tech age.
The reason? Demand, motivated by regulation. More and more jurisdictions are mandating shotgun-only deer seasons.
"Half of all the deer shot every year are taken with shotguns," says Remington research engineer Vince Scarlata, "and of those, I would say 90 percent are shot with slugs. That is a huge market. And, with the developments we are seeing, shotgun-slug research has become an exciting field."
Continue article
Advertisement
All the research in the world, however cannot repeal the laws of physics, and it is those immutable laws that have, for more than a century, made shotgun slugs a 100-yard proposition.
Shotguns as we know them descended directly from muskets-smoothbores that fired both charges of pellets and single-- round lead balls. These single projectiles, popularly called "pumpkin balls," worked well enough out to about 50 yards. With the arrival of choke-boring, however, even that minimal effectiveness was reduced. With balls made small enough to fit through even the tightest choke, accuracy fell off alarmingly.
In the 1930s, a shotgunner named Karl M. Foster developed the slug that now bears his name. Cup shaped, with a hollow skirt that would expand to fit the bore, the Foster remained one of the two dominant slug designs for half a century. Winchester began loading them in 1936 and still does. The other design was the European Brenneke, which employed a lead cylinder with a fiber wad attached to the base. Both the Foster and the Brenneke have lead vanes which impart a slight spin for stability, but do little to enhance accuracy.
The Foster and the Brenneke are effective out to about 100 yards. Beyond that, you run into several problems. The biggest is that you lose accuracy. Right behind that is loss of killing power. And, as the slug sheds velocity, it begins to plunge like a stone. In the search for a slug that is effective out to the unheard of distance of 200 yards, these are still the three obstacles that must be overcome.
Every engineer in the field agrees that a gun-and-slug combination that is effective beyond 150 yards will have a fully rifled barrel and will shoot sabot slugs. Smoothbores and Foster slugs will never cut it. Let's look at each of these three obstacles individually from a gun and projectile point of view.
Accuracy
For deer, you need to be able to keep all your shots in a 6-inch circle at 200 yards.
The major challenge in this area lies with the ammunition, not with the gun. It is a simple matter to put a rifled barrel on most standard shotguns and attach a scope that allows precision aiming. Put on a 2.5X or 4X scope and you have the accuracy you need.
A sabot slug then gives you a combination of rotation for stability and a decent ballistic coefficient. Sabots have been around for a couple of centuries. They were first used in muskets. The word is French for the wooden shoes that were common in the 18th century, and were so named because the first sabots came in two parts, each resembling a shoe. The musketeer enclosed his bullet inside the two halves, and pushed the whole thing down the barrel.
Today's shotgun sabots are made of synthetic material that hugs the rifling, imparting a high rate of spin without exceeding the standard shotgun breech-- pressure limit. When it exits the muzzle, the sabot falls away, leaving the slug rotating like a rifle bullet. Using sabots, shotguns can be made to fire slugs that closely resemble rifle bullets from a .45-70 or similar cartridge. They can be jacketed or have hollow points. Most important, they have a much higher ballistic coefficient than standard slugs.
Typically, the Foster slug has a coeffident of around .07-so abysmal that most ballistics charts do not give the velocity and trajectory figures for it (.09 is as low as most of them go). The new Remington solid-copper slug has a coefficient of .211, while their newest bonded slug has a coefficient of around .300. Suddenly, we have a projectile capable of both long-range accuracy and velocity retention.
Killing Power
With the old slugs, velocity was shed so quickly after 100 yards that penetration suffered. With sabot slugs, most of which weigh about an ounce, the penetration and killing power will be there at 200 yards provided you actually hit the target. Expansion is generally not a consideration as it is with rifle bullets. Even the smaller sabot slugs have such a wide diameter (typically .50 caliber) that they do not depend on expansion to provide punch, although the newer sabot slugs like the Winchester Partition Gold and the bonded Remington do provide expansion capability if there is sufficient retained velocity.
Remington's solid-copper slug has a muzzle velocity of 1,550 fps and a very respectable energy of 2,334 ft.-lbs. At 100 yards, the energy has dropped to 1,600 ft.-- lbs., and at 200, with velocity down to 1,096 fps, energy is only 1,167 ft.-lbs-just enough killing power for a deer-sized animal.
Trajectory
The real problem as velocity drops is the increasingly steep trajectory of the bullet. Between 175 yards and 200 yards, a standard slug may drop 10 inches! This being the case, a range miscalculation of as little as 25 yards can cause a miss even if everything else is right on.
Fortunately, a great deal of deer hunting today is done from stands. A hunter can use a laser rangefinder to pinpoint the distance to visible objects. When a deer appears, he knows almost to the foot how far he is shooting. Since sabots date from the era of muskets, why not use range stakes, which were also employed by Wellington's infantry?
Looking at these three areas, it becomes obvious that the best way to extend the range of a slug is to increase the muzzle velocity. With projectiles that better retain velocity, you get more downrange energy and a flatter trajectory. Unfortunately, the governing factor here is pressure. Shotguns are built to withstand maximum-breech pressures of 11,500 psi, whereas a deer cartridge in the .30-06 class will take 50,000 psi.
The 3-inch 12 gauge works at 14,000 psi. While it has slightly superior ballistics, the longer shell does not offer a great range advantage, nor much potential for improvement.
"The extra room in the case means you need a bigger wad," says Scarlata. "It does not mean you can stuff in a great deal more powder."
Engineers working to develop better slug guns must do so within those pressure limitations. Otherwise, what they create may not be a shotgun at all.
"There is no real definition of a shotgun used by the game departments," says Scarlata, "But a good rule of thumb is that if a firearm uses a cartridge that can be fired from a standard shotgun, then it is a shotgun.
"When we first introduced the sabot slug, a half-dozen states threatened to disallow it. Their objections were withdrawn when we showed that the slug started to tumble at about 225 yards, which limited the range severely. Our new slugs will not start to tumble until about 275 yards, but that is still close by rifle standards."
Ammunition companies always have to keep that fact in mind: Shotguns are mandated because they are short-range weapons. Develop a combination that stretches the range too far and you run the risk of having the gun outlawed.
Given the limitations on the ammunition, 200 yards would seem to be the extreme we should look for in a slug/gun combination, and then only under conditions where ranges can be measured accurately. But consider: Just 10 years ago, 200 yards looked like a pipe dream. Now we are there, and new developments are coming thick and fast.
Copyright Sports Afield, Inc. Jun 2002
Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved
Sheephunter, I was really surprised to see your reply to my posting. Actually, I hadn't even thought of you, as I had another line of threads in mind. I used the term, "-treated us as imbeciles--," and I hadn't even entered into the threads you obviously refer to!
However, I did go back and look over the threads you refer to and I found this from you.
"I'll let you crawl back in your cave now!"
Can I detect a guilty mind?
However, I did go back and look over the threads you refer to and I found this from you.
"I'll let you crawl back in your cave now!"
Can I detect a guilty mind?
No not at all........I'm just a student of irony.........that was ironic
As your comment was in a thread about a subject I was quite involved in, I naturally but apparently mistakenly took it to mean me. Sorry for the confusion.
There's no harm in not knowing something but it does get a little tiresome sometimes on here when people will argue about things they have zero knowledge of and then when proven wrong, they turn your words around and mis quote and mis interpret and start arguing with their interpretation of your words. I guess it's easier than arguing with facts or gawd forbid, admitting they learned something..
Present company excluded of course.
Last edited:
I would make the case that people here argue with you, not because they think you aren't knowledgable, but because your tone is usually well..."argumentative"
See my PM for details
Last edited:
Ah, I'm just misunderstood! Truly don't mean to be confrontational....just matter of fact. I stay out of conversations that I'm not knowledgeable about and wade into ones where I do have some knowledge. These boards are primarily for the sharing of info and it just seems a shame when incorrect info is being shared........
Isn't this board is about shooting and hunting....not individual personalities.
Last edited:
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
X2
I take nothing personal around here except attacks on character and the like. I don't mind people telling me my that my 30/30 is an anemic artifact, and in the same sense I throw out a few comments as well, and hope they get taken with the same grain of salt and back handed grin they were sent with, but i can tell you I have never once gotten annoyed with anyone here, afterall, internet forums are not most peoples main life concern.
There are many knowledgable people on this sight, some more knowledgable than sheephunter, and a good many that are less knowledgable. and a gooder many that know more than me, yes i said gooder!
sometimes a condescending tone just screws it up for all.
i speak only of my personal experiences and what i hear from friend hunters. I often speak too quickly, and with passion not thought, but that's just me.
I take nothing personal around here except attacks on character and the like. I don't mind people telling me my that my 30/30 is an anemic artifact, and in the same sense I throw out a few comments as well, and hope they get taken with the same grain of salt and back handed grin they were sent with, but i can tell you I have never once gotten annoyed with anyone here, afterall, internet forums are not most peoples main life concern.
There are many knowledgable people on this sight, some more knowledgable than sheephunter, and a good many that are less knowledgable. and a gooder many that know more than me, yes i said gooder!
sometimes a condescending tone just screws it up for all.
i speak only of my personal experiences and what i hear from friend hunters. I often speak too quickly, and with passion not thought, but that's just me.
Last edited:
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
there is no comparison, the 30/06 can and always has done, everything the pointless .270 has. It's almost as pointless as the .338 Federal, but hey this is about the 270 and 30/06 right 
Sheephunter. take a breath, now reread,
..... Ok have it.
just kidding, all guns previously mentioned in this post are far from top notch.
Sheephunter. take a breath, now reread,
..... Ok have it.
just kidding, all guns previously mentioned in this post are far from top notch.
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
I give it about 11 minutes before Pharoah gets in on the .338 Federal.
I'm not sure where this misconception comes from that when someone presents facts that a certain cartridge offers performance advantages over your cartridge that they are instantly an enemy of your favourite cartridge. Sometimes facts are just facts and if you choose to shoot a cartridge like the 45/70 or 30/30 that is ballistically inferior to many other cartridges it doesn't mean anything other than you enjoy the challenges that come with that cartridge. Sticking your head in the sand doesn't change phyics!
Rapidly changing muzzleloader and shotgun technology is going to make these two guns ballistically superior to many centrefire cartridges but the day that ballistics becomes the only measure of a gun's quality is the day that I'll quit hunting. We should celebrate the differences, not deny they exist.
Rapidly changing muzzleloader and shotgun technology is going to make these two guns ballistically superior to many centrefire cartridges but the day that ballistics becomes the only measure of a gun's quality is the day that I'll quit hunting. We should celebrate the differences, not deny they exist.
I give it about 11 minutes before Pharoah gets in on the .338 Federal.
My BS detector went off at work and I got here as fast as I could. Who's a$$ do I have to kick first?
- Location
- Back in the Peace Country
ta dAAAAAAA!!!!!
I give you Pharoah2 !!!!!
I give you Pharoah2 !!!!!
Like watching a bus crash...hunting caliber arguments are chalked full of Shadenfreude.
Methinks Pharoah2 answer needs to be made into a sticky for the hunting forum.
PS I'm planning to buy another SKS for hunting Island deer this year.
Last edited:
Did somebody mention the 270?
Was just reading the Dec. 1960 issue of Outdoor Life. Jack O'Connor has an article entitled, Thirty Five Years with the 270.
He states he bought a Model 54 Winchester in 270, as soon as it was on the market, in 1925. I found this interesting what he said about the first bullets for the 270.
And here we thought such bullets were of modern design, and had to have a ###y sounding name!
Was just reading the Dec. 1960 issue of Outdoor Life. Jack O'Connor has an article entitled, Thirty Five Years with the 270.
He states he bought a Model 54 Winchester in 270, as soon as it was on the market, in 1925. I found this interesting what he said about the first bullets for the 270.
And here we thought such bullets were of modern design, and had to have a ###y sounding name!
