Big Game Calibers - Math vs Experiences?

wasa

wasa

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The engineer in me loves to make spreadsheets and analyze data. A while ago, I asked about using 180gr 44 caliber projectiles in my muzzleloader for deer. Opinions were mixed. So, in an effort to do "math", my Internet research (ha ha) lead me to looking at the Energy, Taylor Knock Out Factor (TKOF), and Chuck Hawk's Killing Power Score (KPS). Chuck uses velocity at 100 yards, while the values I currently use in my spreadsheet are at the muzzle (just because).

So, based on these numbers, what do others think (or use) for the application of "big game" such as deer, bear, moose, elk, etc?

The 243 Winchester appears similar to the 7.62x39 (at the muzzle). 357 Mag rifle is better than 30 Carbine it would appear. 9mm rifle? No way. With muzzleloader, it would appear full sized PowerBelts have the number advantage over saboted pistol bullets.

Based on my table, the 12g slug rules in terms of KPS and TKOF (at close range only obviously).

Yes, I should make a spreadsheet for 100 yards (or 50, or 200, or whatever range) but, to start discussion, what factors do YOU think are the most important when hunting deer/moose/bear? Energy like 1000 ft/lb for deer/bear and 1500 for elk/moose? KPS of 13 for deer and 35 for moose as per Chuck Hawks?

(standard disclaimers apply, like we should assume all projectiles are proper quality hunting bullets (no FMJ).)
 
shot placement is #1, Bullet construction #2, then everything else is best saved for entertainment and arguments. But this year i'll be carrying my 308 loaded with remington hog hammer 168 gr barns tsx. haven't made it to the range yet but hopefully they shoot as well as the barnes vortex with the 168 ttsx.
 
Big game animals do not read the charts, thank goodness.
Place the bullet in the correct spot, and the deed is done.
Dave.
 
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Bullet performance or killing ability is a hard thing to reduce to a mathematical formula. Most of the formulas work to a certain extent when comparing similar cartridges; for instance it doesn't take much to indicate that a 30-06 is more gun than a 30-30 and less than a .300 Mag. Formulas that emphasis caliber and momentum make a bowling ball seem like an awesome force of destruction, but its wrong. Ditto for any that rate a 12 gauge or a muzzleloader several times higher than 7 Rem mag. Simple observation bears that out.

The Taylor formula was his attempt at rating the ability of elephant cartridges to stun ele that he missed the brain on. It was never meant for anything else. This the same guy that considered the 300 H&H with 150s the fastest killer of lighter game that he had every seen, but somehow nobody remembers that. A stick of dynamite with a trigger is how he described it.

Chuck Hawks mostly re-writes everything that is safe and painfully obvious and thinks he's breaking new ground.

In a general sort of way what kills that fastest is the bullet that makes the biggest wound channel that is deep enough. Thats going to be those with higher impact velocities and bullets with a degree of frangibility.

Nathan Foster does a better job of explaining the myriad of factors, calibers, bullet construction and shot placement than anyone I know. Not a spread-sheet in sight, but he is an engineer if that matters to you.
 
Too many variables to boil it down to a math equation.

Bullet construction
Shot placement
Speed
Bullet diameter
Range


Not to mention the more ethereal

“Toughness” of the animal
Timing of the shot in relation to the animals vascular system
Individual bone density correlating with age
External factors affecting velocity (temp etc)

And on and on

I think 458 has it right, shoot the biggest gun you can. Though we were members of the same range and he always seems to have a 416 or 458 Lott with him so maybe he is taking it a little far :dancingbanana: better than being a poodle shooter advocate imo….
 
Math is only relevant when comparing like-for-like. In ballistics, muzzle velocity/energy is pretty ###y. In hunting, impact velocity and bullet performance is everything.

Muzzleloader and 12ga look awesome on paper, but on game at 200 yards the 7-mag simply wrecks. Same with the .243 vs. 7.62x39, there's no scenario where I would use either that I would take a x39 over a 243. Put the right projectile in the right cartridge and send it.
 
Like you, I like to know the numbers...
I have always kept in mind what the old PH's and Guides, and gun writers who had way more experience than I, recommended.
2000 ft. lbs of energy for elk, bison and big bears
1500 ft.lbs of energy for moose
1000 ft.lbs of energy for deer, black bear, etc.

Many modern writers now say 1500 ft.lbs for elk. This may be due to current long range hunting fad with premium bullets and higher BC/SD #'s of heavy for caliber bullet trend.

At the end of the day, as stated above, placing a bullet in the vitals is the most important factor that you can control, second being sure that that bullet has adequate SD (min. of .250) and energy to reliably penetrate to the vitals, on even less than perfect shot placement.

Bone density of a certain species, as mentioned above should be considered. Elk have the densest bone of any animal in North America; so stay away from that onside shoulder (offside shoulder OK to aim for and break - just like on a bear).
Thick fur and hide such as on bison can pose an issue, as can the heavy shoulder plate and hide on a large, old Russian boar, or the thick hide and fat on a walrus, as examples of features to consider on certain species.

The variables you cannot control, as stated above, is the target animal's individual character and tenacity (toughness). Elk have a tenacity of life that moose just do not possess as an overall species...but an individual animal may surprise you. I had a quiet, resting caribou bull take 5 shots in the vitals from about 100 yards before expiring, and caribou are not known for their tenacity.

Their current state of mind at the time of the shot also has an impact on their reaction. Are they quiet and unalarmed, resting, or grazing? Or are they full of adrenaline from being alarmed, having been on the run for whatever reason, or rut-crazed?
 
My area is shotgun or ML only.

I use one of my custom 458 ML’s.

2500 FPS, 300 grain pill is my whitetail load.

If I want them not to take a step, I use a 2740 FPS load. It produces 5000 FPE at muzzle and at 300 still is pushing 2000 FPE

Barnes TTSX is the bullet of choice.
 
I don't know how to reduce it to an equation; but you could do worse than using small, fast and soft bullets on small, soft and fast animals. Save the big, hard and slower bullets for big hard and slower animals. Besides that there isn't much to know.
 
wasa said:
MfvYEN9.png


The engineer in me loves to make spreadsheets and analyze data. A while ago, I asked about using 180gr 44 caliber projectiles in my muzzleloader for deer. Opinions were mixed. So, in an effort to do "math", my Internet research (ha ha) lead me to looking at the Energy, Taylor Knock Out Factor (TKOF), and Chuck Hawk's Killing Power Score (KPS). Chuck uses velocity at 100 yards, while the values I currently use in my spreadsheet are at the muzzle (just because).

So, based on these numbers, what do others think (or use) for the application of "big game" such as deer, bear, moose, elk, etc?

The 243 Winchester appears similar to the 7.62x39 (at the muzzle). 357 Mag rifle is better than 30 Carbine it would appear. 9mm rifle? No way. With muzzleloader, it would appear full sized PowerBelts have the number advantage over saboted pistol bullets.

Based on my table, the 12g slug rules in terms of KPS and TKOF (at close range only obviously).

Yes, I should make a spreadsheet for 100 yards (or 50, or 200, or whatever range) but, to start discussion, what factors do YOU think are the most important when hunting deer/moose/bear? Energy like 1000 ft/lb for deer/bear and 1500 for elk/moose? KPS of 13 for deer and 35 for moose as per Chuck Hawks?

(standard disclaimers apply, like we should assume all projectiles are proper quality hunting bullets (no FMJ).)
Click to expand...

Wow.
 
I think 458 has it right, shoot the biggest gun you can. Though we were members of the same range and he always seems to have a 416 or 458 Lott with him so maybe he is taking it a little far :dancingbanana: better than being a poodle shooter advocate imo….
Click to expand...

✔️

  • well at least the G&H caliber selection guide doesn't suggest to use a .458 on Trophy Groundhogs/Prairie Dogs :p:https://griffinhowe.com/game-guide-american
  • you never know what is enough unless you know what is more than enough? ;)
 
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Tech winnies at it again
Simple math
Dear , moose , elk black bear antelope caribou and likely a few more out to 350 yds
270 win 308 win 30-06 6.5x55 7-08 7mm Mauser 35 whealn 8mm Mauser and many others will get it done alll the magnums
Sight in 3” high at 100yds it’s that simple
 
Well you have the 350gr 50 cal ML at 1700fps and the 180gr 50 ML at the same velocity, not going to happen. Your 180gr with 100gr of 777 should run around 1900fps, the 300gr 1800fps and the 350gr 1650 or so. You also only look at the muzzle, energy is lost by velocity drop which has a lot to do with the bullet profile. The 100gr 0.243 is more efficient through the air than the 125gr 0.310 bullet.

Your data is flawed as it does not take a lot of that other information into account.

Don't worry though, the math does not really matter that much, put a bullet into the lungs/heart of a deer and it will die, the hole size leaving means more when you need to track it.
 
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