That is because the Bren 2 was DESIGNED FOR a 14" maximum barrel length. The 16" Barrel is required to meet a US importation mandate, just as the idiotic-looking 18.5" "Pinnochio" Barrels are required for NR status in Canada. That front-heavy feeling has zero to do with the military design, which is IMHO, superior in MANY ways to the M4/AR15. It is a purely "after the fact" civilian issue brought about by nonsensical national regulations.
Black Creek Labs AR180 based rifle SVR2 Siberian approved for Non restricted FRT
- Thread starter Northern Shooter
- Start date
That is because the Bren 2 was DESIGNED FOR a 14" maximum barrel length. The 16" Barrel is required to meet a US importation mandate, just as the idiotic-looking 18.5" "Pinnochio" Barrels are required for NR status in Canada. That front-heavy feeling has zero to do with the military design, which is IMHO, superior in MANY ways to the M4/AR15. It is a purely "after the fact" civilian issue brought about by nonsensical national regulations.
it is set up this way because the step on the wk180 piston that the spring pushes on is the failure point on the piston. they could go to an ar180 or svt approach but that would have made for a larger assembly that would interfere with the handguard and full-length rail unless (a) they made the entire receiver taller like the crusader, or (b) lowered the piston such that it interfered with a barrel nut and used a plate instead like the rwa or r18.
instead they did away with the spring altogether, however without spring tension there is nothing to stop the piston from popping out of the gun so they captured it with the gas block. gotta take the gas block off to remove the piston. but hey, just clean it without removing it.
for all the people complaining about this, imagine the maximum whine if there wasn't a full length rail or - gasp - the receiver rail didn't line up with the handguard rail.
instead they did away with the spring altogether, however without spring tension there is nothing to stop the piston from popping out of the gun so they captured it with the gas block. gotta take the gas block off to remove the piston. but hey, just clean it without removing it.
for all the people complaining about this, imagine the maximum whine if there wasn't a full length rail or - gasp - the receiver rail didn't line up with the handguard rail.
For those unaware, the SAI R18 Mk2 Gas System disassembles in an identical, tooless manner to the original AR-180 design. Indeed, the R18 directly (and IMHO wisely) copies the original, right down to the Piston Return Spring (that the Siberian lacks). The 3-piece Gas Cup and Piston Rod assembly has natural, intended flex which negates broken Pistons. Never been an issue with the OG AR180, AR18, the AR180B or the R18. Go figure...
The Crusader Templar Gas System disassembles out the Front of the Handguard, but requires a correctly-sized socket and wrench to loosen then remove the Gas Plug. Then the one-piece Piston and its Return Spring slide forwards out of the Gas Block. The Templar avoids Piston breakage by making the Piston oversized in comparison to the earlier, breakage-prone WK-180.
The Crusader Templar Gas System disassembles out the Front of the Handguard, but requires a correctly-sized socket and wrench to loosen then remove the Gas Plug. Then the one-piece Piston and its Return Spring slide forwards out of the Gas Block. The Templar avoids Piston breakage by making the Piston oversized in comparison to the earlier, breakage-prone WK-180.
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i think they wanted the smallest upper receiver possible and did a good job. if they went taller like the crusader it would be bulky like the crusader. if they went with a mounting plate instead of a barrel nut then the receiver would have to be a bit wider/taller to accommodate the fasteners.
Does the Sterling R18 use AR-10 sized handguard? I would be curious how the Siberian's compares.
With the Jard J180 being chonkier then the Templar and having mag retention problems, and SBI not yet making a DI BCG, do you think the Siberian would be a good candidate for DI variant? If you used a gas tube and gas keyed BCG with vents, the cleaning would be moved to the receiver. It could the compete against the Dissent in the States, too. Thoughts?
With the Jard J180 being chonkier then the Templar and having mag retention problems, and SBI not yet making a DI BCG, do you think the Siberian would be a good candidate for DI variant? If you used a gas tube and gas keyed BCG with vents, the cleaning would be moved to the receiver. It could the compete against the Dissent in the States, too. Thoughts?
I think that you would solve one problem (awkward Gas System access) with a potential multitude of others trying to devise an all-new DI Bolt Carrier and Bolt. The Operating System has to be properly Gassed and Timed, which is not as simple as copying an AR Bolt and Carrier Recess with the 3 vent holes. The different operating mass of the new Bolt Carrier and the Dual Operating Spring force(s) must be factored in. There must be sufficient Dwell-Time for the bullet to exit the Barrel and for the Gas Pressure to drop to a safe level for the breech to unlock and open rearwards. I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, as Jard managed a (likely patented) working design. But it is a lot more work than you seem to think.
A redesign of the Gas Piston into 2 parts akin to the interlocking PWS Long-Stroke Pistons design would suffice. It is a comparatively simple and easy fix to sort out the Gas System's current flaw. At the end of the day? Sales will increase if BCL react and introduce a rolling upgrade to the Gas System. This thread offers irrefutable evidence of that! But is BCL monitoring this thread???
ETA: The R18 Handguard is a proprietary AR-10-ish size, originally designed for the (now Prohib) SAI .308 Rifle.
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^
Point take about the difficulty of DI.
If the remove gas block to clean piston is not acceptable, the market will decide. Plenty of people have bought the Gen 1 and 2 WK knowing they could have a piston failure; how many people willing to buy the Siberian knowing the hand guard and gas block need to be removed to remove and clean the piston will be seen in time.
Point take about the difficulty of DI.
If the remove gas block to clean piston is not acceptable, the market will decide. Plenty of people have bought the Gen 1 and 2 WK knowing they could have a piston failure; how many people willing to buy the Siberian knowing the hand guard and gas block need to be removed to remove and clean the piston will be seen in time.
Yes, but my point stands - people in this thread have already changed their purchasing plans based on the Gas System revelation. I am one of them, and recall at least one other poster (thus far) stating the same. Regardless of how many sales BCL makes, they are already losing potential customers. Those are additional sales that can still be realized with a simple rolling change to a tool-less (eg. field-strippable) Gas System...
I'm not gonna pretend to live in the guys at BCL's minds but I'd assume they'll (eventually) come up with a rolling upgrade (or maybe TNA will have an aftermarket one?) as it strikes me as easier to get a bunch of these rifles out now and show that they're reliable (in the current political climate) and "fix" the gas system later. Given there appears to be a gas plug on the front of the gas block, it seems to me you could relatively easily clean most of the gas system without removing the gas block, if you were so inclined. Personally, I like to put 1-2k rounds through a new rifle before being satisfied that it's reliable so if/when I get one of these, I'll probably just run 1500 rds through it without touching the gas system and if it runs fine, I'll pull the gas block off then, inspect the piston, see how dirty it is, clean it and call it good for another 1500 rds. I know the WS and Sentinel/Templar can handle thousands of rounds without cleaning the gas system so I'm not super stressed about it.
Again, I'd rather it be "perfect" and not require tools to disassemble but this particular 180 ticks a few boxes for me that none of the others do (with regards to weight, size and cost). Lets also be honest in that these 180s mostly fit the niche of giving us something non-res/non-prohib that we can (for now) legally shoot that have very similar controls to an AR. They aren't (yet?) the kind of firearms derived from weapons developed for combat that you could stake your life on (if you needed to), we have access to those (albeit at close to double the cost) in the Tavor, Bren, G36, etc.
you beat me to it - the more i look at it the more i like it - i like the smaller/lighter/fewer parts/less to break approach. i hope they don't change the gas system as i'm pretty confident i can keep it clean without pulling out the piston. and if i have to remove the piston then two set screws (with a dimpled barrel) is a lot less heartache than removing say a milspec trigger.
althoguh a quick-release gas block would be cool.
althoguh a quick-release gas block would be cool.
Bartok5 is correct. I was wrong on my thinking that the gas block on the R18 has to be removed. The block on the BCL will need to be removed for cleaning however.
I can also confirm that the adjustable gas valve WILL launch out of the gasblock if you screw up and and don’t install it properly. FML.
Took the Siberian out yesterday for a bit. Put about a 100 rounds through it, and it worked perfectly. Had a couple hiccups on round 7 a couple times but I believe it’s an issue with one of my Crossmags.
Seems like a great shooter and was ringing the gong at 300m after a quick sight in at 25ish yards. Using PMC brass so no comment on accuracy or anything. I’m not that guy ��
I’m running a Strike Eagle 1-6 lpvo with ‘high’ mounts. One thing we did notice is the Zhukov stock hits your over earpro a lot when getting a cheek weld. Might need to run a higher mount with it vs the r18 with the magpul stock.
Not much more to report, I’m gonna open it up at some point to check it out and track down the parts for my R18.
I can also confirm that the adjustable gas valve WILL launch out of the gasblock if you screw up and and don’t install it properly. FML.
Took the Siberian out yesterday for a bit. Put about a 100 rounds through it, and it worked perfectly. Had a couple hiccups on round 7 a couple times but I believe it’s an issue with one of my Crossmags.
Seems like a great shooter and was ringing the gong at 300m after a quick sight in at 25ish yards. Using PMC brass so no comment on accuracy or anything. I’m not that guy ��
I’m running a Strike Eagle 1-6 lpvo with ‘high’ mounts. One thing we did notice is the Zhukov stock hits your over earpro a lot when getting a cheek weld. Might need to run a higher mount with it vs the r18 with the magpul stock.
Not much more to report, I’m gonna open it up at some point to check it out and track down the parts for my R18.
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DaveMachine
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Ah, I misunderstood. Sucks to hear, the Siberian comes so close to being a decent rifle, and then they biff it with something stupid like a piston which isn't field serviceable. Until someone proves its reliability with thousands upon thousands of rounds, or until BCL redesigns the gas block, I think I'll just wait for the factory NR Brens...
I saw some guy on Facebook, some ceo of a gun store in bc, claiming the rifle is “flawless”. No other info or details provided despite my prodding. Just 1 pic of a target and snarky comments and claims of spending $100k and thousands of rounds claiming it’s perfect operation…fingers crossed this rifle is that “flawless”…
