Brand Loyalty, love/hate...etc

Being opinionated and passionate about things is integral to being a "nut" about anything...be it beer, hockey, vehicles and yes even guns.

If you think that I am a pretentious douchebag because I drink beer that you have never even heard of, while I think you are a member of the unwashed proletariat for drinking Corona...well that's just part of spirited debate.

Let the spirited debate continue.
 
Depending on the company in question the answer could be yes or no. Certain brands are "protected" on CGN.

That wouldn't be NEA by any chance would it? I think the hate club for them is bigger than the one for Norinco. At least the Chinese don't even pretend that their stuff is anything but an inexpensive copy and the price point is on the mark for what you get
 
That wouldn't be NEA by any chance would it? I think the hate club for them is bigger than the one for Norinco. At least the Chinese don't even pretend that their stuff is anything but an inexpensive copy and the price point is on the mark for what you get

The Chinese stuff works out of the box too.
 
I'm not a fan of either brand loyalty or brand animosity, but the bolded section highlights what I find to be a common false dichotomy on gun forums.

A lot of people separate opinions into "happy owners" and "haters". This particularly happens with cheaper guns.

There are those two groups. There are also unhappy owners, indifferent owners, indifferent non-owners, people with lots of experience who don't like guns based on legitimate information, and so on.

Not every criticism is unwarranted brand bashing. Some companies genuinely put out inferior products. That is not to say that every single "brand X" thread should be a flame fest but at the same time, if there is a discussion about the merits of a given gun, I think it's pretty reasonable to say "brand X has a history of product recalls" or "brand X has become notorious for failure Y".

I couldn't count the number of times I've been called a "hater" and my descriptions of problems with various guns have been characterized as "spewing" by people who are happy with their guns. Or the number of times people have said something along the lines of "do you own one? Then you don't know, so #### off" despite the fact that while I don't own one I have had to fix the same issue on five of them for different people, say. Or I happen to know that the manufacturer of a given item had a major problem with porosity of welds on a particular item because I was there when it was discovered, or the person who figured out the issue is a friend of mine, and I know the manufacturer calculated the cost of the fix against the cost of the small number of returns they were getting, and decided to do nothing, gambling on the fact that most people don't shoot enough to encounter the problem.

So while I agree that brand loyalty and brand animosity are both stupid, there's also being informed about different manufacturers, as well as varying levels of acceptance when it comes to quality. For example, I buy Norinco 1911s because I have the facilities to correct all their issues. As a result I am pretty tolerant of lousy fitting and nonexistent QC. If I didn't and I had to run them straight out of the box, I wouldn't buy them. I understand having different levels of quality tolerance and not everyone has to have the same values. Just remember that not all criticism is from people who just happen to prefer a different brand, and not everybody builds guns to the same standard.

Yeah, whatever hater. :bigHug: ;)
 
That wouldn't be NEA by any chance would it? I think theo hate club for them is bigger than the one for Norinco. At least the Chinese don't even pretend that their stuff is anything but an inexpensive copy and the price point is on the mark for what you get

I think this thread came about because of a post I made in a NEA thread....I had a brand new bolt blow up on me on the 3rd round fired 2 weeks ago. Apparently warning people about their suspect quality is "trolling" and I even got infractioned for recommending another brand that was similar price and better quality.
I would get it if someone posted derogatory #### on the dealer forums where they make a living off selling this ####, but in the discussion forum? Really?
 
For me I love quality in anything I purchase. I abhor junk, and love great engineering and craftsmanship. My guns are just for fun so the quest for quality is simply that.
I would be foolish to think that a cheap firearm would be less fun. Certainly, there may be more joy found in the thriftiness of the purchase, if for no other reason than there is more money for ammo.
 
I think unless someone has extensive experience with something AND THEN hates it, they should keep their opinion to themselves... Certain people on here rub me the wrong way constantly, and I don't even have to have posted in the discussion!

Unfortunately there will always be those people that think they know everything and are the master of all things gun. They force their opinion on others because they think everyone should have their opinion as well. Some of you may know who I am talking about by simply describing them.

I think if folks repeatedly go into a thread and don't contribute anything useful and just spit out vicious dribble they deserve an infraction for sure. Just my opinion.
 
^ I agree so long as it goes both ways because there are those that "hate" on both low and high quality arms, And then there are those that push what they own and think is the best in almost every thread they respond to stating their gun is magic and problem free when countless issues with that make/model have been posted. Sometimes the same recommendations are made many times a day in various different threads and sections (Hunting and sportings arms is one of the worst I see with page after page of people recommending the same guns to new hunters like there is no other options, heven forbid you do post anything different or a bad experience with those brands recommended as you will just have outed yourself from that forum).

You can't hand out infractions and cherry pick just one end of the epectrum or you are just fueling the fire.
 
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How would you determine if they are contributing, though, and what constitutes drivel?

Often people who don't like the message conclude the source is wrong. I'm assuming you're thinking at least in part of TDC; well, TDC isn't always the easiest to get along with but he often knows what he's talking about, and not enjoying hearing it doesn't make it incorrect. I don't always agree with him and we've had some good fights over the years but in general he has a good idea of what runs and what doesn't, and how to run guns well.

People often don't know what the experiences of others are. The assumption is often that if you don't like what someone is saying, they don't know what they're talking about. But I have not always found that to be the case.
 
How would you determine if they are contributing, though, and what constitutes drivel?

Often people who don't like the message conclude the source is wrong. I'm assuming you're thinking at least in part of TDC; well, TDC isn't always the easiest to get along with but he often knows what he's talking about, and not enjoying hearing it doesn't make it incorrect. I don't always agree with him and we've had some good fights over the years but in general he has a good idea of what runs and what doesn't, and how to run guns well.

People often don't know what the experiences of others are. The assumption is often that if you don't like what someone is saying, they don't know what they're talking about. But I have not always found that to be the case.

If some one hates Glocks and says they cant shoot with them, First thing said is seek training there is nothing wrong with the gun. While I agree, sometimes it doesnt need to be said, let people find their own way.
 
How would you determine if they are contributing, though, and what constitutes drivel?

Often people who don't like the message conclude the source is wrong. I'm assuming you're thinking at least in part of TDC; well, TDC isn't always the easiest to get along with but he often knows what he's talking about, and not enjoying hearing it doesn't make it incorrect. I don't always agree with him and we've had some good fights over the years but in general he has a good idea of what runs and what doesn't, and how to run guns well.

People often don't know what the experiences of others are. The assumption is often that if you don't like what someone is saying, they don't know what they're talking about. But I have not always found that to be the case.
Problem is people take the internet seriously when really you cant take it that way or you have problems that moderators have to sort out which usually gets the juicy details about peoples problems with certain guns deleted so you and I go on in life un informed.

You have to realise no matter how smart you are or what life experiences you have with firearms, There will always be someone smarter than you, better than you, and more well traveled when it comes to firearms. Some of the people on here may come across as "God like" and appear to know everything but that is impossible in reality, the sooner people realise that (Including the "god like" ones) maybe everyone can post their opinion and experience and have it taken at face value rather than have people pick apart what happend, call the guy who is having the problem out as an idiot and jumping down his throat just for having a problem
 
How would you determine if they are contributing, though, and what constitutes drivel?

Often people who don't like the message conclude the source is wrong. I'm assuming you're thinking at least in part of TDC; well, TDC isn't always the easiest to get along with but he often knows what he's talking about, and not enjoying hearing it doesn't make it incorrect. I don't always agree with him and we've had some good fights over the years but in general he has a good idea of what runs and what doesn't, and how to run guns well.

People often don't know what the experiences of others are. The assumption is often that if you don't like what someone is saying, they don't know what they're talking about. But I have not always found that to be the case.

Fair enough.

I think realistically you can't simply 'have your cake and eat it too' on these forums.

Good points brought up by all.
 
There normally seems to be two seperate thought patterns on firearm purchases...one is buy onto nostalgia, fine wood, fit & finish, accurate rifles and the other is buy into economical, functional, accurate rilfes. As long as the purchaser is happy, who really cares what someone else has to say. A lot of the time the guys bashing (and its usually the first group doing the bashing) haven't even held the rifle they are bashing. Let us see over a period of time, if the economy rifles survives on there laurels or disappear on their hailed by some shortcomings.
Its my opinion that most of the economical rifles will still be in use hunting game long after some of those bashing them are long gone and forgotten about. Thats just my 2 cents.
Enjoy what ever you feel comfortable in spending....we're only here for the short term!
 
So how many are there? The guys who buy cheap stuff like sks and norinco, what hk or any other reputable brand product have they bought in the past?

I have two Norinco products: a M305 and a 5.56 AR15 upper. Both were relatively cheap and seem to work fine. Yes, the M305 took some tinkering, but I knew that going in to it because I didn't want to pay $2500 for a Springfield when a Norinco did the same thing: put holes in deer and targets, and I wasn't/don't shoot matches with it. I also own some $75 to $200 cheap scopes...

I also bought a $1500 Boberg XR-9 when most people figured that was horribly too much money on a new unproven product; and I own a damn nice Franchi 12ga & 20ga Over/Under set that you won't pry from my hands with a Leopard tank (it fits me like I was born with it attached to me, better than anything in the $500 to $50,000 range for me). I also have a long range rifle with a $1500 scope on it...

I own what I own because it does what I ask it. Sometime it does what I ask of it for cheap, or I buy cheap because I know I'll F'ck it up doing what I do to it. Sometimes only high end expensive products will do what I ask of it, likely because only high end quality will see that well or perform that well. Almost Exclusively I own what I own because it fits me and it is what is best for me, price being ignored. I have said that I shoot a Sig better than a Glock: that is not bashing a Glock, but showing ability with a Sig.


the sooner people realise that (Including the "god like" ones) maybe everyone can post their opinion and experience and have it taken at face value rather than have people pick apart what happend, call the guy who is having the problem out as an idiot and jumping down his throat just for having a problem

Good luck. The number one problem I see is one guy is a "true lover" of a product, or just wants to give a product a chance, and then someone else has a problem with it: the opposite person having an opposite opinion then must seem like they are ignoring them for having an opposite opinion, so then the fight starts...

It either starts like:

person 1 "Gawd, brand Blue firearms are sooooo awesome." :adult:

person 2 "But my brand Blue rifle jams all the time." :(
So now person 1 sees an opposite opinion and acts like they are either being ignored or insulted

person 1 "Are you doing this wrong? Are you using crappy brand Green magazines? Are you a true operator? Do you have a clue? Is your sphincter choking your air supply?" :ang3
So now person 2 is insulted regardless of how blunt or actually how sweet and helpful the suggestions are.

person 2 "I don't have to be some Call of Duty keyboard "Operator" crap to load the chamber, close the bolt, turn off the safety and pull the trigger while the muzzle is pointed at safe target on safe range Pink. I actually go shooting a real gun, I'm not a gaming device jockey Mall Ninja fast food diet single 40 year old virgin in their mom's basement." :HR:
So now person 1 sees this as an insult to their years of quality brand Yellow training... and it never stops until a Moderator jumps in.

Or it starts like:

person 3 "I think I'll try brand Blue firearms." :wave:

person 4 "No. Person 2 says they are crap and jam all the time. All of them." :sok2
So person 3 was IBTL and read all of person 1 and person 2's fight that got locked.

person 3 "I know they have some fit and finish issues; but they are new and I have some cash to waste so I will buy one and work it out." :HFU:
So now person 4 thinks person 3 is an idiot, ignoring them, insulting them... or most likely with CGN, all of the above.

person 4 "Have you not seen all of the reports all over CGN about what sh!t brand Blue brand firearms are? Did you not see the report where a friend-of-a-friend's wife's dude's dog's owner accidentally shot a seagull in a McDonald's parking lot behind the range Rink 100 yard back stop right in the left foot trying to clear jam number sixty-six?!?!" f:P:
So now person 3 rage quits posting on CGN because they got ignored and treated rudely.... and somewhere in there a Moderator jumps in.


I know I made and poked some fun with those examples, but I have been IBTL and seen the stupid people type. Yes, the stupid people type. I meant that just that way: that stupid people type and the stupid stuff people type.

I know right now opening a topic on a NEA rifle is like walking into a sitting of US Congress and saying, "I caught Obama doing a Rob Ford. I have photos." Eerie quiet... then Chaos. G: The place gets a damn unsettling quiet before either a) the battle starts and the moderator shuts it down or b) there is crap load of posts only saying "IBTL" and then the moderator gets on that one too.

It just seems like there is little respect for people that want to express that they own one and it:
1) doesn't work right (so they have to repeatedly shove that down people's throats and try to bankrupt the company)
2) it works fine regardless of someone's lemon (so they get treated like crap, or can't shut up about how theirs it perfect)
because often they don't give any respect either.

However, that is the Internet. There is a lot of good resources, but there is a lot of opinions. Including mine. So smile: because rebuttals of my opinion will be ignored. :stirthepot2:

Internet: [in-ter-net] the single worldwide idiot network that interconnects other computer idiots, on which end-user rants, such as World Wide Web blogs or forums, are located, enabling rudeness and other foulness to be exchanged


{Seriously: take a moment to breathe, and then get up and go shooting... it will do you more good than sitting here reading my rant}
 
I am very disappointed in this thread, as I thought it was going to be a post your love/hate and argue about it with others from the get go... It's slowly picking up though... Will have to check in again tomorrow to see if it will deliver.
Personally I have a lot of love for a lot of guns but can't stand rugers.
 
I think this thread came about because of a post I made in a NEA thread....I had a brand new bolt blow up on me on the 3rd round fired 2 weeks ago. Apparently warning people about their suspect quality is "trolling" and I even got infractioned for recommending another brand that was similar price and better quality.
I would get it if someone posted derogatory #### on the dealer forums where they make a living off selling this ####, but in the discussion forum? Really?

You are getting pretty creative there Hitzy. You posted your "warning". And you posted it it in a dealer's forum. That dealer didn't nuke the thread. The mods didn't nuke the thread. Despite the conspiracy theorists who say certain brands are protected and everything negative about NEA just disappears your thread is still there for all to see. In fact, I'll even provide a link to it: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/993971-NEA-bolt-failed-after-3-rounds

That's not trolling. What IS trolling is when someone starts a thread talking about how pleased they are with the NEA lower they got from Frontier and you jump in with pics of your defective bolt. Please don't pretend that you had your pee pee slapped for warning people about suspect quality...you were trolling plain and simple.
 
I think this thread came about because of a post I made in a NEA thread....I had a brand new bolt blow up on me on the 3rd round fired 2 weeks ago. Apparently warning people about their suspect quality is "trolling" and I even got infractioned for recommending another brand that was similar price and better quality.
I would get it if someone posted derogatory #### on the dealer forums where they make a living off selling this ####, but in the discussion forum? Really?

As long as you learned your lesson. ;)
I'm not sure why NEA seems to be so protected on this site but since I don't own one and don't plan on owning one I don't have to worry about getting in trouble for sharing my experiences with them.
 
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