British Columbia - Proposed regulation changes

[Ardent]

There was an interesting article recently that showed Tourists who want to photograph Grizzly Bears bring much more revenue than people who shoot the bears.
It could be a simple matter of economics.

That was an extremely biased article, I read it too. It was heavily influenced by the native band as well.

First and foremost it completely ignores the fact we can, and already do, do both. Hunting Grizzlies doesn't mean less bears, quite the opposite, by removing the mature males that kill cubs (mature males kill cubs as a natural population control), and who consume the most food you maintain the health of the population and allow a sustainable, renewable harvest.

So, what do you think pays more, tourist viewing? Or hunting AND tourist viewing? Ask Dogleg, he hunted my area this year- there's no shortage of Grizzlies on the coast. If you're against bear hunting, this likely isn't the best forum for you.

you are but one apple in the barrel Angus
and while your opinion and posts are certainly respected here...... I wouldn't be in such a hurry to defend the GOABC if I was you.
the truth is out there and it's not good, denying it is pointless.

Except they advocate for the continuation of the Grizzly hunt more effectively than any other organisation, and they cover us with insurance I'm required to have far more affordably than any other option. Reality is there's good and bad in everything, the GOABC will prove instrumental in protecting the hunt. I lodged a complaint this year with the GOABC in the internal survey about the bungling of resident relations. They're sensitive to it and the questions asked to members made it clear to me the importance of improving resident relations is at the top of their concerns this year. And rightly so, there have been cataclysmic #### ups.

 

[Gatehouse]

Alright, I have a great deal of respect for 1899 and his opinions, however a couple base facts should be laid out, and they aren't disputed by either side of the debate.

93% of all game animals harvested in BC are taken by residents
~88% of all allocations go to residents
The significant majority of territories are still owned by British Columbians, including my family

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Pretty creative spin by GOABC there. Sure, residents are going to take more game, but most of it isn't on quota, and the dispute isn't about areas with GOS mule deer or black bear.

Outfitters in BC receive some of the most generous splits in North America, surpassed by only by a few areas in the territories. BC's outfitters get a HUGE amount of quota compared top most of NA.

Most of the splits give 15-40% to the guides. That's right, a few thousand non residents get 15-40% while over 100 000 residents get to enter draws for 60-85%

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/docs/Wildlife-Allocation-Decision-2015-FAQ.pdf

 

[Gatehouse]

Don't forget Mike Morris, MLA for Prince George and Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations, who also happens to be long time friends with Michael Schneider, vice-president of, and mouthpiece for, GOABC. The GOABC screwed the resident over - plain and simple. The business model for the industry is, imo, unsustainable in the modern context without being propped up at the expense of resident hunters. And on that point, you know what Minister Steve Thomson told me? "Yeah, well we prop up the dairy industry too".

Ironsighter - you like eating moose? Why should just over 200 GO's get 20%-25% of the annual moose allocation while you have to get an LEH or travel great distances and then count points in one or two corners of the province? How many of those Germans, Americans etc are packaging up their moose meat and taking it home? Why should wealthy people be able to shoot a moose every single year while you wait for that once every 4, 5 or 10 years moose LEH? Oh yeah, and the new proposed closures in the Skeena are in....wait for it...one of the few remaining GOS for moose areas. YOU ARE being pushed out by corporate control - today. GO's in BC have among, if not the, highest allocation percentages in all of North America.

Oh yes, it brings in whatever $$ thrown around by the GOABC. Except that many territories aren't owned by BC residents...or even Canadian residents. How can that be? Well the Guiding Territory Certificates owned by foreigners are just held in a Certificate Trust Account. How much of the money earned stays here with those "mom and pop" operations?

Yup, GOABC's old school trophy hunting business model is outdated and not sustainable. With Adventure tourism being at an all time high and with urbanites tripping over themselves to get out and learn how to harvest their own organic meat, GOABC cries that they need more of the residents share to make a living?? And they can't even sell many of the hunts anyways? How about examining the changing face of hunting and adventure tourism and learn to capitalize on it? It reminds me of the ski hills that refused to allow snow boarders for years because they didn't want to change, then were forced to change or go broke.

 

[Bartledan]

There was an interesting article recently that showed Tourists who want to photograph Grizzly Bears bring much more revenue than people who shoot the bears.
It could be a simple matter of economics.

So there are people who come to BC for the SOLE reason of photographing Grizzlies?

Haven't they both been eaten, yet?

That photo revenue trope is a lefty dingbat smokescreen to fool the uninformed.

 

[Bartledan]

With Adventure tourism being at an all time high and with urbanites tripping over themselves to get out and learn how to harvest their own organic meat...

Oh ####. I'm a hipster.

 

[Ardent]

Pretty creative spin by GOABC there. Sure, residents are going to take more game, but most of it isn't on quota, and the dispute isn't about areas with GOS mule deer or black bear.

Outfitters in BC receive some of the most generous splits in North America, surpassed by only by a few areas in the territories. BC's outfitters get a HUGE amount of quota compared top most of NA.

Most of the splits give 15-40% to the guides. That's right, a few thousand non residents get 15-40% while over 100 000 residents get to enter draws for 60-85%

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/harvest_alloc/docs/Wildlife-Allocation-Decision-2015-FAQ.pdf

Agreed on some counts, and a very different take on others. Such as that allocations affect the most hunted species the least. Neither the government or outfitters, or the evil GOABC want to deprive residents of their hunts. The hunts with the highest non-resident allocations are those that are pursued by residents the least, and by an extreme majority. Moose stands at 85% resident 15% guides to 75-25 on the high, with a government edict to work towards 90/10 as put in that very link.

Thinhorn sheep and Grizzlies in particular have higher guide allocations, as those are the flagships that keep the industry stable. Mountain goats are my bread and butter, and my entire area is open to residents, over the counter tags, and I've yet to meet a resident in there despite offering free rides in to a half dozen or so now. It's just too far in for a goat, and the interest isn't there when a resident can drive to other areas. I'm not saying residents don't, or shouldn't have great opportunity to hunt stone sheep- I myself hunt sheep as a resident and have yet to tag my stone.

It's a mess admittedly, and I don't agree with everything done by the GOABC, the government, the native bands, or all resident opinions. I do need to make my operation viable and while I have limited species, we have great populations for resident and our operation alike. I've yet to have a talk with a resident that didn't turn out positive except at the gas station with one very obese fellow in camo, that clearly wasn't competing for goats. And I enjoy the opportunity to discuss it civily here too.

 

[Bartledan]

Speaking as a first generation urban hunter in BC...

I spent two years wandering around the woods with my buddy (who also knows bugger all). We might as well have held our dicks as guns. Heck, the first year, we wore *blaze*!

This past year I lucked into a friendship with a couple of experienced hunters that resulted in this year's deer.

If that hadn't happened, we had about decided to go on a guided hunt. I'm sure I'm not the only artisanal cheese munching, micro-brew slurping bearded twit with a gun. Maybe the guides need to advertise at poetry slams and hot yoga studios?

 

[Superbrad]

Following this thread.... not a BC resident but may be planning a BC hunt in short order..... For what it's worth, I appreciate the passion I see here....

 

[Ardent]

Speaking as a first generation urban hunter in BC...

I spent two years wandering around the woods with my buddy (who also knows bugger all). We might as well have held our dicks as guns. Heck, the first year, we wore *blaze*!

This past year I lucked into a friendship with a couple of experienced hunters that resulted in this year's deer.

If that hadn't happened, we had about decided to go on a guided hunt. I'm sure I'm not the only artisanal cheese munching, micro-brew slurping bearded twit with a gun. Maybe the guides need to advertise at poetry slams and hot yoga studios?

Lots of residents book guides, I've taken one booking for next year already, and had a lot more calls I just don't have the capacity to take. Offered a lot of pointers in the right direction however.

 

[Gatehouse]

Oh ####. I'm a hipster.

And there is a market for guys and girls like you. All over north america there are people that would pay to go on an adventure and bring some meat home. Size of the trophy is secondary. Adventure and a learning experience is key. Most BC outfitters will never be able to tap into this huge and growing market because of their own attitudes.

 

[Superbrad]

And there is a market for guys and girls like you. All over north america there are people that would pay to go on an adventure and bring some meat home. Size of the trophy is secondary. Adventure and a learning experience is key. Most BC outfitters will never be able to tap into this huge and growing market because of their own attitudes.

Today's hipster may be next years addicted hunter.....

 

[Ardent]

Sigh... Lot of presumptions. Most outfitters are just like me and you Gate, and most are sincerely nice folks. They also have bills to pay and mighty big ones, suspect it's less to do with attitudes and more to do with economics. It's very hard to spend a week or ten days away from your family and make the payments on assisting with resident hunts at rates that sound at all fair.

I've actually been planning something where from spring to fall you take a resident from zero to mountain. I get calls from folks perusing the GOABC outfitter directory, who haven't hunted, in one case never shot before (English fellow by accent, now BC resident). Thought it would be slick to help them choose a rifle, sight it in, teach them to shoot over a summer of range trips, and take them to the mountains by fall. Have them field dress their own animal with the guide's help, and own their hunt and experience, more involved than a typical trophy hunt. I have friends that are resident hunters looking to get into guiding and it seems a perfect mix. Would also put green hunters into much wilder country, after some pretty interesting species, years ahead of schedule. The number of young urbanites who perk up when hunting is mentioned rather than turn away leads me to believe there's something possible here.

 

[45ACPKING]

I'd like a straight answer as to why the region 5 rut closure on mule deer benefits anyone BUT the goabc who incessantly lobbied for it.
It's most certainly not a conservation motivated closure. It's to keep resident hunters from taking mature bucks so as the years go by, there are more for the outfitters to hunt. It's bullsh*t that the best part of the season sees me have to drive for hours to hunt deer when there are plenty all around me throughout the region.
Same with region 5-1 and 5-2 moose tags this year. Crap loads of moose around, but again tags taken from residents and given to outfitters.

 

[Superbrad]

Sigh... Lot of presumptions.

I've actually been planning something where from spring to fall you take a resident from zero to mountain. I get calls from folks perusing the GOABC outfitter directory, who haven't hunted, in one case never shot before (English fellow by accent, now BC resident). Thought it would be slick to help them choose a rifle, sight it in, teach them to shoot over a summer of range trips, and take them to the mountains by fall. Have them field dress their own animal with the guide's help, and own their hunt and experience, more involved than a typical trophy hunt. I have friends that are resident hunters looking to get into guiding and it seems a perfect mix. Would also put green hunters into much wilder country, after some pretty interesting species, years ahead of schedule. The number of young urbanites who perk up when hunting is mentioned rather than turn away leads me to believe there's something possible here.

Thats a great idea Angus..... My fondest hunting memory is of standing over my first whitetail at 16 years of age and wondering what the hell to do next.... but still being so damn proud... the interwebs weren't around in current form back then and I just winged it and did a pretty damn good job of it luckily (although I did puncture the guts)..... all part of the experience....

you guys have great resources and these newbs don't care if they harvest a trophy, they want an experience.... and that is really what life is about...

perhaps the englishman you speak of always wanted to hunt but could not based on how hard it is to get licensed for a firearm there?.... who knows?....

Were I in your shoes, I would find guiding and helping a new hunter like that extremely rewarding.....

 

[AbdullahD]

Today's hipster may be next years addicted hunter.....

A lot of the "city" folk and "hipster", likely have grandparents/what have you that used to hunt. Now I dont throw myself in the same category, due to the fact my Dad, Mom and 3 of my brothers hunt. but im green as hell, not to shooting, shot a fair bit in my life... but if it was easier to get connected with experienced hunters it would help people like me... (wrong days off to hunt with the family)

any rate what im trying to say, is help us idiots out because it helps everyone. if the "hipsters" and "lefties" are going hunting every year.... kinda protects the hobby.

Ya gotta remember is every hobby/sport/etc has an entrance fee to become "one of the boys" and this entrance fee dissuades a lot of people.... so if that gets removed to a large extent more people may partake.

 

[Bartledan]

Today's hipster may be next years addicted hunter.....

Well, I was addicted the first moment my buddy brought up the idea.

I'm also pushing 50, have a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a pickup. my beard is less hipster, and more math teacher.

Even my leftiest of acquaintances seem quite glad to come over and eat on my little 2X1 buddy, too.

 

[Superbrad]

A lot of the "city" folk and "hipster", likely have grandparents/what have you that used to hunt. Now I dont throw myself in the same category, due to the fact my Dad, Mom and 3 of my brothers hunt. but im green as hell, not to shooting, shot a fair bit in my life... but if it was easier to get connected with experienced hunters it would help people like me... (wrong days off to hunt with the family)

any rate what im trying to say, is help us idiots out because it helps everyone. if the "hipsters" and "lefties" are going hunting every year.... kinda protects the hobby.

Ya gotta remember is every hobby/sport/etc has an entrance fee to become "one of the boys" and this entrance fee dissuades a lot of people.... so if that gets removed to a large extent more people may partake.

I grew up in the country.... I do all I can to introduce all I can to it.... even to the point where I have taken several from here out for a first hunt..... There are no idiots, except the ones that fight us over what we do..... as long as you are safe, you are welcome with me and in my camp any time....

 

[Superbrad]

Well, I was addicted the first moment my buddy brought up the idea.

I'm also pushing 50, have a wife, two kids, a mortgage and a pickup. my beard is less hipster, and more math teacher.

Even my leftiest of acquaintances seem quite glad to come over and eat on my little 2X1 buddy, too.

Good on you Dan.... the small ones eat the best.... and you are spreading the sport and getting out there.... that is what it is all about...

 

[45ACPKING]

It's unfortunate there aren't any quality mentoring programs.
My hunting partner and I have collectively close to 50 years hunting experience.
We're not super hunters, we're not trophy getters, we're just a couple guys who take our hunting very seriously and are seriously equipped. .
I've decided to dedicate the rest of my hunting "career" to mentoring new hunters for at least 2 or 3 hunts a year.
So if yer one of those new hunters strugglin to put it together, you don't need a guide, just take guys like me up on our offers

 

[Bartledan]

Sigh... Lot of presumptions. Most outfitters are just like me and you Gate, and most are sincerely nice folks. They also have bills to pay and mighty big ones, suspect it's less to do with attitudes and more to do with economics. It's very hard to spend a week or ten days away from your family and make the payments on assisting with resident hunts at rates that sound at all fair.

I've actually been planning something where from spring to fall you take a resident from zero to mountain. I get calls from folks perusing the GOABC outfitter directory, who haven't hunted, in one case never shot before (English fellow by accent, now BC resident). Thought it would be slick to help them choose a rifle, sight it in, teach them to shoot over a summer of range trips, and take them to the mountains by fall. Have them field dress their own animal with the guide's help, and own their hunt and experience, more involved than a typical trophy hunt. I have friends that are resident hunters looking to get into guiding and it seems a perfect mix. Would also put green hunters into much wilder country, after some pretty interesting species, years ahead of schedule. The number of young urbanites who perk up when hunting is mentioned rather than turn away leads me to believe there's something possible here.

Well where the hell were you three years ago?!?

Keep me in mind for the "ahead of schedule", if you don't mind. My boys are 4 and 2, and I'd love to have some old tricks to teach the young puppies in a decade or so!

Cheers!