Bubba'ing milsurps - My head is spinning

buffdog said:
.
This is an interesting thread on a subject that is indicative of our changing times. It is a debate between those who want to preserve some of our History and Heritage, mostly an older group of people, and those of a mostly younger group who sort of reflect the views that they can do anything they wish with their property. As one of those older people who has actually lived through the heyday of the Milsurp Era, I think I am entitled to make a few observations.

First of all, back to KJOHN's original post, I think he may just be referring to a couple of Swedish rifles that I sold him. Both rifles were made by Mauser, in 1900, with serial numbers under 5000 and part of a special order Contract initiated by the Swedish Rifle Association, the SkytteOS. These rifles were made to original specifications so that the Civilian target shooters could compete with the Military, as the Swedes were re-arming their Military with the M96 rifle and had none to give to the Civilians. In fact, a lot of these were bought or donated to the Army, who proceeded to drill the stock for a disk. These 5000 rifles were originally made WITHOUT a stock disk, and now KJOHN has an original one, (one of four known original ones without an original intact stock and without a stock disk hole in it,) along with one that has had the stock disk hole drilled in it.

So, with the limited special production of 5000 rifles, and only 4 known ORIGINAL rifles of this series, does anyone really think that KJOHN should take the original rifle down to his workshop, stick a Forstner bit into a drill, and proceed to put a stock disk hole in the butt stock, or maybe cut down the original Mauser made stock, and drill holes for a set of weaver bases on it? How about cutting the barrel down to make it a lot more handy?

After all, it is HIS rifle, and he can do with it what he wants to!

SMELLIE and I took THREE YEARS in getting a Historic rifle for a Canadian Military Regiment's Museum, and only a handfull of people here know the real story of how we did it. It ended up that this rifle was donated to the Regiment, and while it did cost us a bit of cash, it did not cost them any money. This was a 1905 Ross, but the markings on the Butt Stock were that of the Regiment, and because these Regimental markings were intact and not cancelled out, it indicates that this particular Regiment was the last owner of this rifle back in 1914. Does anyone really think we should have sanded off these markings from the Butt Stock, cut down the wood, refinished, or "Sporterized" that rifle to make it look "pretty"?

As I stated, I have lived through the times when the Milsurps were plentiful. Those $9.95 SMLE rifles that were displayed in Surplus stores in a barrel, "take your pick," are now pushing the $500 range for an original one in good shape. And I have to confess that I, too, did "Sporterize" a few of them at the time. A 6.5mm Mannlicher-Schoneur Carbine in the 1960s was in the $150 range, and for a person making $1 an hour, that was a lot of money. However a Greek surplus one was less than $10 and for another $15 or so, along with some work done on the stock, a person could have a reasonable "clone" of that handy little but very effective deer rifle. And that little rifle, topped with a 2.5X scope, using readily available CIL ammunition, accounted for a lot of Deer and Game.

But Times, Attitudes and Needs change. The supply of ORIGINAL Milsurp firearms has been steadily drying up. Governments have now armed their Military with more modern semi-automatic and full automatic firearms, and these will NOT be available as Milsurps in the Future. One has only to look at the FN rifles in Canada to see this. The supply of older Milsurps has declined dramatically over the last 20 years or so, and the Moisin-Nagants of today will become as scarce as the SMLEs and Lee-Enfields of the 1960s or the Swedish Mausers of the 1980s, and no more will be made.

If we were to really think about it, you could sell an original Lee Enfield on the Equipment Exchange, and with the proceeds buy TWO of them in excellent shape with still a bit of money left over. If someone really wants to "Sporterize" a rifle, then why not start with one that has the preliminary work already done?

As TINMAN204 pointed out, I am getting a bit long of tooth and up there in age. Through Experience, you learn a lot of things throughout the years, and one of the things I have learned is that the Past can not be re-lived but can be PARTLY preserved for our Future Generations to have. When People die, or objects disappear or are altered beyond return to their original state, we lose a lot of our History and Heritage.
Click to expand...

^ This...
 
CanadianAR said:
Anyone who says "its their property....etc yada yada, bull####"

If you destroyed rare artwork, the art world would be pissed
If you destroy a rare car, the car world is pissed
If you destroyed some antiques, antique people would be pissed.
If you tear down an old building people are pissed.
When people are passionate about things they defend them, not just "oh meh hes ruining things they dont make anymore, not my problem"
If you honestly dont think its ok to be a little upset over, you cant be too smart.
Click to expand...

Again...a bit of confusion here. I haven't, and don't read anyone condoning the destruction of historical goodies (except a post about shortening a barrel with a hacksaw). It's about all the threads of people bemoaning the loss of stuff that isn't theirs.

The original post was about some Swedish rifles, found to have suffered in America. The rifles so abused that a head is left spinning... No date of transgression, but I doubt it was a live feed showing the dismemberment. It had already happened. It happened to things not owned by any of us. They are the same things that have been happening to these gems since being surplussed.

I don't know how many times I've reiterated that I don't support the choice to alter a 'surp. I support the owner's (yes the owner) right to do what they want with it.

If you destroyed rare artwork, the art world would be pissed. They would be...artwork tends not to get churned out by the millions, and used to blow holes in different artists. By design they are to be appreciated. If you think aesthetics were part of any rifle trial, then you are pretty far removed from the history you're preserving.

If you destroy a rare car, "some" of the car world is pissed...some car guys like 'em all original, some like blowers sticking through their hoods. Like gun owners, some just squeeze triggers, some identify with a bygone era. The car world doesn't whine about it when a VW is turned into a Dunebuggy because there are enough appreciators of both.

If you destroyed some antiques, "some" antique people would be pissed depending...I'm guessing you do have all your childhood toys? No, you probably don't, and you don't really lose sleep over what some antique appreciators want...I'm certain there is no forum with someone's "head spinning" because a wringer washer's purpose now is to hold Ice n' beer.

If you tear down an old building people are pissed...I doubt they will find the building's fate on the internet, and whine about it in a forum, in another country...

"If you honestly dont think its ok to be a little upset over, you cant be too smart"... Reread the whole thread. Of course I'm not smart! No claims to clever forthcoming. My claim is it's pitiable that some "holier than thou" attitudes get to whine in unison because someone, somewhere else chose to do what they wanted with their stuff! As much as 'surps are loved, we certainly don't honour the folks who lugged them by lamenting in forums. oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhh the horror. The folks who toted these certainly have more reverence for their fellow countrymen's property rights than our lot, or they wouldn't have carried them at all. You think someone who spent time in a trench gives a rat's ass that these arms are not being respected now? Very doubtful.

My own experiences with vets, and my Father's own perspective (war kid in Berlin) suggest that the people who actually carried them for their designed purpose don't want much to do with them at all now. They certainly don't miss having one pointed at them.

Jeepers, even my head is spinning now.
 
Last edited:
Buff Dog, I fully agree with all that you say above.

I have long ago stated my mea culpa on the L-Es that I bubbaed in the late 1950s. Did I keep one original for myself? NO.:mad: How stupid of me. Did I buy at that time a boxed L-E scoped sniper rifle for, I think, well less than $100.NO. :mad:

About 1937-9, I knew of two or three very young men who bought up all kinds of old Colts after the 1934 pistol registry came in. They also corralled sealed original cases of .577 ammo and Sniders from the prepositioning done in Ontario in fear of the Fenian raids; they had competitions on which one could stand and fire more than the other before their shoulders gave out. I also recall during the early days of WW2, many very fine rifles and shotguns were turned in and sent to the UK for home defence. :(

Stupid is as stupid does. I am as guilty as anyone out there as louthepou knows.:redface:

At one time, I had in my sig line that when an old person passes on, a library burns down. Also, I had the statement about while we "own" stuff, we are really only custodians for posterity.
 
If you take a mismatched refurb and alter it, Hector the Collector will cry to the heavens. If you offered him the same rifle for sale, he would scoff at it and say it's not a collectable. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
 
camster said:
Again...a bit of confusion here. I haven't, and don't read anyone condoning the destruction of historical goodies (except twosteam's post about shortening a barrel). It's about all the threads of people bemoaning the loss of stuff that isn't theirs.

The original post was about some Swedish rifles, found to have suffered in America. The rifles so abused that a head is left spinning... No date of transgression, but I doubt it was a live feed showing the dismemberment. It had already happened. It happened to things not owned by any of us. They are the same things that have been happening to these gems since being surplussed.

I don't know how many times I've reiterated that I don't support the choice to alter a 'surp. I support the owner's (yes the owner) right to do what they want with it.

If you destroyed rare artwork, the art world would be pissed. They would be...artwork tends not to get churned out by the millions, and used to blow holes in different artists. By design they are to be appreciated. If you think aesthetics were part of any rifle trial, then you are pretty far removed from the history you're preserving.

If you destroy a rare car, "some" of the car world is pissed...some car guys like 'em all original, some like blowers sticking through their hoods. Like gun owners, some just squeeze triggers, some identify with a bygone era. The car world doesn't whine about it when a VW is turned into a Dunebuggy because there are enough appreciators of both.

If you destroyed some antiques, "some" antique people would be pissed depending...I'm guessing you do have all your childhood toys? No, you probably don't, and you don't really lose sleep over what some antique appreciators want...I'm certain there is no forum with someone's "head spinning" because a wringer washer's purpose now is to hold Ice n' beer.

If you tear down an old building people are pissed...I doubt they will find the building's fate on the internet, and whine about it in a forum, in another country...

"If you honestly dont think its ok to be a little upset over, you cant be too smart"... Reread the whole thread. Of course I'm not smart! No claims to clever forthcoming. My claim is it's pitiable that some "holier than thou" attitudes get to whine in unison because someone, somewhere else chose to do what they wanted with their stuff! As much as 'surps are loved, we certainly don't honour the folks who lugged them by lamenting in forums. oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhh the horror. The folks who toted these certainly have more reverence for their fellow countrymen's property rights than our lot, or they wouldn't have carried them at all. You think someone who spent time in a trench gives a rat's ass that these arms are not being respected now? Very doubtful.

My own experiences with vets, and my Father's own perspective (war kid in Berlin) suggest that the people who actually carried them for their designed purpose don't want much to do with them at all now. They certainly don't miss having one pointed at them.

Jeepers, even my head is spinning now.
Click to expand...

Wasn't trying to single you out. Just a general statement as type type of outlook is common.
And you've missed the point of my post.

Purists in any hobby will lament the destruction of their chosen passion.
Not every car guy is a purist, and every gun guy is either. But if you are you know it.

And if you don't think people whine about buildings......next time they tear something down , that was old and well known around you, go read the comments section of a newspaper website.
With this newish invention people express outrage at everything

I also never said anything about vets or this hobby respecting them or not.
You can have respect and still be disappointed there's less original rifles out there.
 
points said:
If you take a mismatched refurb and alter it, Hector the Collector will cry to the heavens. If you offered him the same rifle for sale, he would scoff at it and say it's not a collectable. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Click to expand...

You are indeed missing the point!

If everyone buys a mosin and strips off the red schelac off the gun then eventually people will forget that the rifles ever came that way! If bubba gets his way one day there will be zero Lee Enfields for future generations to study!

Buffdog's generation openly admit to cutting up rifles back then. I can only imagine how many rifles there were around back then. I'm guessing a bazillion, there's still a huge amount today at gun shows and for sale on the EE.

Funny thing is they warn today's generation about chopping mosins, but it falls on deaf ears!

I guess Smellie and Buffdog and Twosteam are "Hector the collector". But they are anything but judgmental, rude or anything of that sort. They would give anyone the shirt off their back and do so with without gratitude or any thanks at all!

I am very lucky to have friends such as Buffdog, Smellie and Twosteam. I actually write down things that they tell me to try and keep some of the knowledge. Buffdog phones me from time to time and I truely enjoy chatting with someone who has been there done that! I am their student and they are great teachers.

When they are gone I will still be here to pass on their knowledge to whomever wants to learn.

To not study and understand history is to walk blindly off a cliff in my opininion!

If there are no reminders for future generations of how insane mankind can truly be, they will not believe it until it's happening.

For instance my great grand father lived through the boer war and fought in WW1, my grandfather fought in WW2. I've had the pleasure of hearing first hand stories from my grandfather about WW2, he heard stories from WW1 from his father and so on and so forth. To hear a "Real" story that isn't on tv and rated PG13 truly makes war sound awfull. I used to sit as grandad drank scotch and told of drinking in the pub, buying tobacco from the black market and things of that nature. Then once in awhile he'd speak of his trusty "enfield" and how it was a superb rifle that he trusted. He even told me that on VE day he was in holland in a trench with several other men from his unit. When they got the good news that victory was a sure thing they celebrated by drinking a single bottle of beer between 10 or 12 men. He said he'd never tasted such good "ale" which was funny cause grandad only drank dark beer cause ale was for sissys!

I never heard grandad speak of taking a life himself, he would only tell of all of the friends and "chums" that never came home.

With or without these rifles as reminders I KNOW it happened cause I've heard it first hand from someone who was there. I've also seen the pain in my granddad's dads eyes some 50 years later.

My generation will be the last who may of heard first hand knowledge from someone who was there. The only tangible reminder will be these rifles!!

I think we owe it to future generations to preserve history so that they can see the Forrest through the trees!!
 
Tinman. It's always difficult to get a point when debating on the internet. Face to face is worth it's weight in gold.
I did all my chopping up when I was an armourer in the Cdn army. I chopped up a whole hell of a lot of Brens and Stens.
I now rebuild rifles as a hobby and would never chop up a full military. That being said, I did once take a refurbed 91/30 and make a carbine out of it. The bore was toast. Dark and pitted with no rifleing and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. My point is, Several collectors decried the action but they would never have bought the rifle as it was because at best it was a wall hanger. One of those same guys wanted to buy it off of me as they thought it was a M38 untill I told them what I had done.
 
CanadianAR said:
Wasn't trying to single you out. Just a general statement as type type of outlook is common.
And you've missed the point of my post.

Purists in any hobby will lament the destruction of their chosen passion.
Not every car guy is a purist, and every gun guy is either. But if you are you know it.

And if you don't think people whine about buildings......next time they tear something down , that was old and well known around you, go read the comments section of a newspaper website.
With this newish invention people express outrage at everything

I also never said anything about vets or this hobby respecting them or not.
You can have respect and still be disappointed there's less original rifles out there.
Click to expand...

And, mutually wish to apologize for only taking your quote...of the many here, yours is one of the few that merit the discussion. The other being a touch too long.

Regarding buildings, I've looked at both sides now, and must admit it's possibly the best example... I manage quite a few properties, one of which has been classified "heritage". It's nice that the old building has gotten some attention, and respect. It's also a total pain that I had to fight for 3 years to get vinyl windows too. Aesthetically, you cannot see the difference in the (finally) new windows. Yes, they are constructed of vinyl, and no longer single pane wood. The cost involved in getting wooden windows made, that would meet the code, and appear similar was beyond astronomical! The only opposition on the heritage society's side was one person who had a distant relationship to the original glazier. When she died, I got my windows. I can assure you, there is not a forum running in another country bemoaning the loss to history. Even if there was (finally the point of all these posts) I don't really care! I can also assure you, that having the new windows in have pleased the tenants, and the bills have gone down enough that the windows will actually be paid for in 2 more seasons! A difference being, the building was registered as historical before it was purchased. Folks who buy, find, or inherit a rifle don't have those strings attached...it is certainly not our place to provide unsolicited opinions on what they do with their own property, whether it makes s head spin, or not.

Whining about what someone does with their own property dishonours the fellas that toted the rifles more than the wood being cut! It's a neat concept some of you don't accept "ownership", and just view it as possessing history. It's not the case though. Noble concept, but simply not true. You own the gem, or you don't. Any of you suggesting you don't, good news! You're possibly the curator of a vehicle, so when it comes time to trade it in, explain to the auto salesman you don't own it. Same when you list your homes (which you're only the curators of).
 
points said:
Tinman. It's always difficult to get a point when debating on the internet. Face to face is worth it's weight in gold.
I did all my chopping up when I was an armourer in the Cdn army. I chopped up a whole hell of a lot of Brens and Stens.
I now rebuild rifles as a hobby and would never chop up a full military. That being said, I did once take a refurbed 91/30 and make a carbine out of it. The bore was toast. Dark and pitted with no rifleing and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. My point is, Several collectors decried the action but they would never have bought the rifle as it was because at best it was a wall hanger. One of those same guys wanted to buy it off of me as they thought it was a M38 untill I told them what I had done.
Click to expand...


By turning that rifle into a carbine, it's glorious history of slaying 30,000,000 of the Stalinist citizenry is now diminished... Do you really care that somewhere Stalin is saddened by the loss? Sleepless nights? No. You did what you thought was best with your own property (and in this case probably improved it)
 
points said:
Tinman. It's always difficult to get a point when debating on the internet. Face to face is worth it's weight in gold.
I did all my chopping up when I was an armourer in the Cdn army. I chopped up a whole hell of a lot of Brens and Stens.
I now rebuild rifles as a hobby and would never chop up a full military. That being said, I did once take a refurbed 91/30 and make a carbine out of it. The bore was toast. Dark and pitted with no rifleing and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. My point is, Several collectors decried the action but they would never have bought the rifle as it was because at best it was a wall hanger. One of those same guys wanted to buy it off of me as they thought it was a M38 untill I told them what I had done.
Click to expand...

Point well taken!!

In the case of your paticular mosin I would say you you did nothing wrong. In fact, you preserved a gun that is now useful to future generations.

I'm far from a purist, I do have several vintage target rifles that were built from classic military rifles. But at the end of the day if I want a "cheap hunting rifle" that is light weight and will shoot 3/4 MOA out if the box I'm sensible enough to just go buy a savage axis for $300 and call it a day.

Although I hunt coyotes with a '43 longbranch, and for varmint control around the farm here I use a heavy oldschool savage 269e Canadian sportsman 12g pump.

I shoot everything from a .577 snider (which was a wallhanger) to a .22 Stevens crackshot, I've yet to say "whomever made this rifle was an idiot, I can surely make it better"!

Old rifles are heavy and long but to me that means light recoil and long sight radious! I wouldn't have it any other way!!
 
I love hoe everyone blew right by the main point of my argument. So here it is again.

They way I look at it is that they are not 'ours'. We are merely caretakers of these pieces of history for a brief span of human history. It is our responsibility to ensure that these pieces of history, artifacts if you please, are around for future generations to see, hold and admire.
 
I would agree dont Bubba a rare peice. But SKS how many tens of thousands are there. Hardly a rare artifact. Its like telling future generations not to Bubba a ruger 10/22. or a Norinco M4 or 305. You got an SKS and u want to make it your own, go for it.
 
Canister you have some good points but I can almost guarantee there is a forum that deals with has people #####ing about heritage sites in bother countries. Lol

And the difference regarding a vehicle is that a car is crushed and recycled.
Typically guns are around a lot longer and may outlive your ownership.

But I think you have me kind of misunderstood though.
I don't agree with sporterkng bit I don't often speak out against it either. I can't stop it. I just mainly offer advice when I can.
 
there seems to be little love for these old guns and the mosin nagant get more hate then most

the way I see it the people who carried these rifles live on with these rifles and its a sign of respect to care for these guns. lets not forget about the Russians who fought and died with the mosin's we now buy. there is very few that have not seen combat and those that are thrown together from other parts and counter bored have seen the most combat. without the Russians the Nazis would have gotten to the oil and iron they needed to continue the war and we would all be speaking German right now
 
We are in a milsurp forum. I'm certain we have to fully embrace that the viewers of it, and most importantly "contributors" to it don't like, or want to see these gems altered... I have actually taken that fact for granted through all my posts.

What irked, and irks me is the continuing holier-than-thou attitude of these threads. Pages n' pages of one devoted to a rifle that was painted a gaudy colour? Too much time on our curator hands to say the least.

Never quite getting irony correct, I hope I'm close when I suggest that; The folks that seem most pleased with why these were carried, or value the historical significance of them now, decry the property rights that were assured by their carriage loudest. Am I close? Is that irony?
 
Komodo said:
I would agree dont Bubba a rare peice. But SKS how many tens of thousands are there. Hardly a rare artifact. Its like telling future generations not to Bubba a ruger 10/22. or a Norinco M4 or 305. You got an SKS and u want to make it your own, go for it.
Click to expand...

Depends - is the SKS a military Russian, made for the Red Army? Or a commercial Norinco made in China for the commercial market? Because in my opinion we can indeed compare the latter with a 10/22 or a Norc 305; but not the former. The reason why the firearm was made is an important difference. One's historically significant, the other isn't.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom