Bulk .223 Rem / 5.56 NATO ammunition !!! SOLD OUT !!!

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skinnadoor said:
Not worth $399.... So what if it's the same the military uses? Friggin dealers jacking up prices.... and people will buy it because it's hyped up as military grade.
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Agreed. The stuff is good, but not worth $180-200 above the regular price. You might as well buy hunting rounds at that price.
 
Bulk .223 Rem / 5.56 NATO ammunition availale

tweeters said:
Agreed. The stuff is good, but not worth $180-200 above the regular price. You might as well buy hunting rounds at that price.
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These bullets have a steel penetrator. I say buy them if your intended targets is wearing armour.
 
Ellwood, I also have about $0.50-0.60/round PMC XTac M855 as a baseline price.

I all along understand and have been supporting dealers for bringing in ammo with the full understanding that price increases due to the panic in the US are inevitable, but is the price you're charging really reflective of the new market dynamics?
 
t_102 said:
These bullets have a steel penetrator. I say buy them if your intended targets is wearing armour.
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I've read some accounts indicating that the steel penetrator prevents the bullet from fragmenting or yawing - so against un-armoured targets or if they are not behind soft cover, they have very poor stopping power.
 
harbl_the_cat said:
I've read some accounts indicating that the steel penetrator prevents the bullet from fragmenting or yawing - so against un-armoured targets or if they are not behind soft cover, they have very poor stopping power.
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We don't need much "stopping power" against cardboard, but in any event the above statement is incorrect. All you need to do is google "m855 gelatin tests" to see the tumble / wound channel of M855.
 
I stand (somewhat) corrected:


Key thing to remember is most ballistic gelatin test are done at short range, and the ability for any .223 round to fragment and yaw is highly dependent upon the projectile velocity.

I believe M855 has a much lower muzzle velocity than M193.

I have to do some digging, but I believe 2700 fps is the magic number for fragmentation, and I believe 1600 fps is the magic number for yaw (top of my head, don't quote me)

IIRC, M193 out of a 20" 1:7 twist barrel drops below 2700 FPS at around 150 yards, and below 1600 at about 500 (again, top of my head, don't quote me) with a muzzle velocity of around 3200 FPS.

Again, let me do some digging, but I beleive M855 out of a 20" 1:7 has a muzzle velocity of about 3000 FPS, and crosses the 2700 FPS fragmentation threshold at quite a shorter distance than M193.

For 5.56, when the bullet velocity drops below it's fragmentation threshold, the amount of damage it does to soft tissue is much less. When it drops below the yaw threshold, it does as much damage as a .22 or .22 magnum.

EDIT:

Here's the chart for M193 (still looking for M855):
M193ballisticchart2.jpg.html


Blarf - can't find the charts, but here's a good article on the subject:

Wounding Effects of the U.S. Military M193 (M16A1) and M855 (M16A2) Bullet Cartridges

Exaggerated descriptions of the wounding effects of the M16 rifle bullet flourish as great works of urban lore. One fable describes a bullet that tumbles end-over-end in flight as soon as it exits the muzzle of the rifle. Another legend provides a dramatic account of an unstable, super-high velocity bullet that tumbles and chews its way through flesh like a buzz saw. Although there appears to be a tinge of half-truth behind these entertaining and awe-inspiring mythical tales, these stories do not represent an accurate description of the wounding characteristics of the M16 bullet.

When the M16 cartridge is fired and the bullet is propelled down the bore, the bore’s rifling imparts a gyroscopic spin to the bullet. This gyroscopic rotation is needed to maintain point forward stabilization of the bullet as it flies through the air. This method of bullet stabilization is identical to the rotational spin applied to a football when thrown by a quarterback (American football).

The Earth’s gaseous atmosphere is approximately 400 times less dense than the body's soft tissues. When the M16 bullet strikes and plows into the body, the rotational spin that stabilized its flight through the air is insufficient to maintain its stability as it flies through dense tissue. The bullet typically penetrates point forward for approximately 4-5 inches before it begins to seek a state of stability in the body.

The bullet’s pointed shape makes it heavier at its base than its nose, producing a center of gravity that is located aft of its longitudinal centerline. When the bullet hits the body and penetrates, the bullet attempts to rotate 180 degrees around its center of gravity to achieve a base forward orientation. This backwards orientation is the bullet’s stable position in tissue because it places the center of gravity forward.

As the bullet yaws through 90 degrees and is traveling sideways through flesh, the stress of tissue resistance to bullet passage can overpower the physical integrity of the bullet. The bullet has a groove around its midsection called a cannelure. The purpose of the cannelure is to permit the mouth of the cartridge case to be crimped tightly against the bullet shank to hold it firmly to the case. The cannelure weakens the structural integrity of the bullet's copper jacket.

At distances of 100 yards and under, when the bullet hits the body and yaws through 90 degrees, the stresses on the bullet cause the leading edge to flatten, extruding lead core out the open base, just before it breaks apart at the cannelure. The portion of the bullet forward of the cannelure, the nose, usually remains in one piece and retains about 60 percent of the bullet's original weight. The portion of the bullet aft of the cannelure, the base, violently disintegrates into multiple lead core and copper jacket fragments, which penetrate up to 3-inches radially outward from the wound track. The fragments perforate and weaken the surrounding tissues allowing the subsequent temporary cavity to forcibly stretch and rip open the multiple small wound tracks produced by the fragments. The resulting wound is similar to one produced by a commercial expanding bullet used for varmint hunting, however the maximum tissue damage produced by the military bullet is located at a greater penetration depth.

(The increased wounding effects produced by bullet fragmentation were not well understood until the mid-1980’s. Therefore the wounding effects of the original M16 rifle bullet were not an intentional U.S. military design characteristic.)

At distances between 100-200 yards the bullet commonly breaks in half at the cannelure forming two large penetrating fragments, the nose and base.

At distances beyond 200 yards the bullet usually remains intact due to velocity decay. It simply yaws 180 degrees to penetrate backwards through the body.

Both the M193 and M855 bullets demonstrate similar terminal performance as described above, when fired from rifles fitted with a 20-inch or longer barrel.

Shooting the M193 or M855 from a rifle with a barrel length less than 14.5-inches produces insufficient muzzle velocity to achieve the terminal performance described above. A rifle fitted with a 14.5-inch barrel is adequate for close-quarters battle. For engagements anticipated at greater than room distance but less than 100 yards, a rifle fitted with a 16.5-inch barrel should be employed to ensure sufficient velocity.

The older 55-grain M193 (M16A1) cartridge is not sensitive to rifling twist rate and can be fired in rifles with 1:12, 1:9 and 1:7 rates of twist. However, the newer M855 (M16A2) cartridge is best used with a rifling twist rate of 1:7 or 1:9. When the M855 is fired in a rifle with a slower rate of twist the longer 62-grain bullet can yaw up to 70 degrees in free trajectory through the air, substantially degrading accuracy.

The wound ballistics of the U.S. military Olin M193/Winchester 55 grain FMJ (X223R1 or Q3131) and green tip U.S. military Olin M855/Winchester 62 grain FMJ (RA556M855) cartridges makes them an adequate choice for use against violent criminal offenders.

Additional testing has indicated that errant bullets (military FMJ and commercial .223 Remington JSP/JHP) which do not hit an attacker appear to penetrate fewer walls and other common building materials than stray handgun bullets.
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Simply put.

Out of a 14.5" 1:9" barrel (aka - Norinco CQ) there's not much point running M855 past 100 yards. I do know (even if I can't pull out the chart) that M193 yields a slightly higher velocity than the M855, so my thought is the ballistics should be better with M193 (as in - less drop over longer range) although you could argue with the extra 7gn mass, theoretically, the M855 should be less susceptible to external factors such as wind.

If you're stockpiling SHTF ammo to hunt big game past 100 yards (should for whatever reason it no longer is illegal to hunt with FMJ or if you are in a hardcore survival situation) M193 is the way to go. If you want to punch holes through steel or hunt at short range (again should FMJ bullets not be made illegal) - M855 is the way to go.

You may never encounter either scenario, but I'd like to know what my ammo is capable of, rather than just know "it's what the military uses."
 
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t_102 said:
These bullets have a steel penetrator. I say buy them if your intended targets is wearing armour.
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They have a steel penetrator, but they are not AP rounds. M855 will not penetrate NITJ III armor, and M193 FMJ will penetrate NITJ IIIa armor, so the difference against an armored target is negligible.
 
If you dig up my thread of a few months ago titled "Scarcer than Sasquatch", you'll get the goods on XM855 (then being sold for $219.99 for the the 420rds on stripper clips in the ammo can) and the XM193. Regarding the ballistic gel tests, you'll also find the goods in that thread. The fine YouTuber "tnoutdoors9" is the go-to guy for ballistics tests and fully agrees with harbl on the yawing and fragmenting: He stocks up on XM193 not XM855 for home defense. XM855 actually can penetrate Level III hard armour but it's usually the Dyneema stuff, not steel or ceramic. Nevertheless, it would be useful to have around if the SHTF.
 
A buck a round is not cheap.

But like everything else in this Sport. Take it or leave it.

Don't buy it if you see no value in it. Some will.

Epps has it... Your choice.

Cheers
 
Bigfooter said:
If you dig up my thread of a few months ago titled "Scarcer than Sasquatch", you'll get the goods on XM855 (then being sold for $219.99 for the the 420rds on stripper clips in the ammo can) and the XM193. Regarding the ballistic gel tests, you'll also find the goods in that thread. The fine YouTuber "tnoutdoors9" is the go-to guy for ballistics tests and fully agrees with harbl on the yawing and fragmenting: He stocks up on XM193 not XM855 for home defense. XM855 actually can penetrate Level III hard armour but it's usually the Dyneema stuff, not steel or ceramic. Nevertheless, it would be useful to have around if the SHTF.
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So I'm not crazy?

Well... maybe I am...

But I do think it's worthwhile to have both M855 and M193 and I personally have both (I just have a LOT more M193). I say get it while you can, if you need some.
 
This stuff shoot great out of my MR-1 ( was given 25 rounds last summer ), i am sure the Swiss will crave this ammo, i am ordering one 420 case... JP.
 
strathconaman said:
I got some for 220 a while back . As much as I would like more, I don't think I could justify the cost. Maybe the price will drop in the future.
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Maybe in an alternate reality... Or if we get a more libertarian Government here or rid of Obama down South. Otherwise the only change in price will be an upward movement. The way they (not the retailers but the powers that be) are going to crush our sport is to put it into the realm of a rich mans game, and it is slowly becoming that way now.
 
Personally I think $1 / round is MUCH better than no ammo available for any price.

Kudos for Ellwood for being the bravest retailer to be the first to price out new inventory at the current market price.

If it is the real, fair market price (not a mistake) I fully suspect $1 / round will be the new baseline for M855, and I suspect M 193 will see a similar price spike when the Chinese stuff clears out.
 
I hear that demand for ammo is beginning to go back to normal. In 3 to 6 months demand is going to drop GREATLY an there will be a surplus of ammo
and pricess will be coming down as well. Not sure if it is correct but that was the word from a dealer. I would wait if you can!
 
harbl_the_cat said:
Personally I think $1 / round is MUCH better than no ammo available for any price.

Kudos for Ellwood for being the bravest retailer to be the first to price out new inventory at the current market price.

If it is the real, fair market price (not a mistake) I fully suspect $1 / round will be the new baseline for M855, and I suspect M 193 will see a similar price spike when the Chinese stuff clears out.
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Critical thinking isn't your strong suit is it?
 
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