Bullet Penetration Question

[Gatehouse]

So what you are saying then, is that for the most part switching bullets mid hunt without re-zeroing is a poor practice other than in a couple special circumstances because of shifts in POI between types and grains of bullets?

I don't think switching loads is a great idea, mostly because it over complicates things, and is unnecessary. As I pointed out, it *can* be done, but is not practical.

But I said that from my very first post on the matter when I said that "I suppose I could switch to my practice ammo..but why bother, since the TSX does it all?"

 

[crazy_davey]

LOL you sir are a puffin strutting around bragging about how big your balls are! I'm quite certain you are a legend in your own mind, but right now you look positively silly, say have you ever heard the Brad Paisley song "So much cooler on line"? I think he playing your song! LOL!
To find me you need to travel about 9 hours north from Calgary, I've lived and worked in the bush my whole life.
Where did I say I killed the bear by clubbing it? Honest to god you are worse than a old woman at making stuff up. I apologize, that is being unkind to old women. That bear is still alive for all I know I never shot him and the Marlin survived the whack on his head. You obviously haven't wandered out from under the street lights if you've never surprised a bear in big timber.
Only a wet behind the ears newbie would surmise that only a wounded bear was dangerous. Here I thought you were touting that you had some knowledge about bears. Talk about have zero credibility you should go hide under your bed!

Richard, I have read enough of your crap(here and on other forums). The only two people who are legends in their own minds are you and TJ. You both need to get over yourselves, you two are not the experts you think you are and you have both proved that in this thread. You both come to CGN bragging like you are the only two in Canada that ever shoot, test bullets and spend time in the outdoors, give your heads a shake. Many of the members you are both arguing with shoot just as much if not more than both of you.


I know Boomer personally and consider him a friend. He is a highly respected member of this forum unlike yourself(like his opinions and experiences or not). He is in no way a bullsh!tter but is very truthful in everything he posts. He probably sees more big bear action in one month than you Richard will see in your lifetime, and thats no bullsh!t either.

So maybe you are the one who needs to crawl back under his bed and quit being the troll you have proved to be so many times before.

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Originally Posted by Omega
LOL you sir are a puffin strutting around bragging about how big your balls are! I'm quite certain you are a legend in your own mind, but right now you look positively silly, say have you ever heard the Brad Paisley song "So much cooler on line"? I think he playing your song! LOL!
To find me you need to travel about 9 hours north from Calgary, I've lived and worked in the bush my whole life.
Where did I say I killed the bear by clubbing it? Honest to god you are worse than a old woman at making stuff up. I apologize, that is being unkind to old women. That bear is still alive for all I know I never shot him and the Marlin survived the whack on his head. You obviously haven't wandered out from under the street lights if you've never surprised a bear in big timber.
Only a wet behind the ears newbie would surmise that only a wounded bear was dangerous. Here I thought you were touting that you had some knowledge about bears. Talk about have zero credibility you should go hide under your bed!

Omega, time to read the forum rules. That type of crap isn't permitted here.

 

[Omega]

Richard, I have read enough of your crap(here and on other forums). The only two people who are legends in their own minds are you and TJ. You both need to get over yourselves, you two are not the experts you think you are and you have both proved that in this thread. You both come to CGN bragging like you are the only two in Canada that ever shoot, test bullets and spend time in the outdoors, give your heads a shake. Many of the members you are both arguing with shoot just as much if not more than both of you.


I know Boomer personally and consider him a friend. He is a highly respected member of this forum unlike yourself(like his opinions and experiences or not). He is in no way a bullsh!tter but is very truthful in everything he posts. He probably sees more big bear action in one month than you Richard will see in your lifetime, and thats no bullsh!t either.

So maybe you are the one who needs to crawl back under his bed and quit being the troll you have proved to be so many times before.

Ahhh, I see how the name came about there Davey, fits you well.

 

[Omega]

Omega, time to read the forum rules. That type of crap isn't permitted here.
[/I]

Yes, I've been warned for being hard on portly, fish eating sea birds. My apologies to the puffin.
It is funny how everything is fine as long as we all agree. Burn the heretic becomes the rally cry as soon as one of the idols word is challenged. The fact is discussion is good for information flow. Right or wrong everyone has read both sides the argument and maybe learnt a few things along the way. I know I have. Does everyone think that advancements in any field came about with out disagreement? Of course not with out some one saying your a fool very few would ever think outside the box.
Where it gets side tracked is when someone goes "oh ya? Well my Dad can beat up your dad!" I should have just recognized Boomers rant as the result of not having anything more worth while to add and ignored it.

For responding to that tirade I apologize.

 

[mbogo3]

If penetration is an issue I'd use a 6.5X55 with a 156-160 gr RN.Never recovered one from a moose yet.The only other bullets with a higher SD in Hornady's lineup are the 220gr .308 cal and the 500gr in .458.A local gunsmith had a piece of 1" armour plate that was shot with everything from .22 CF up to .375 H+H and the only bullet that went through was a .220 Swift/50gr Norma factory load.........Harold

 

[Omega]

IIRC, the Nosler Protected Point Partition was going about 2900fps, the Failsafe 2980, and the 168gr TSX about 3100.

About 200 fps spread from top to bottom

OK, that I can see working, the speed difference between a 260 and 380 must sizable and the POI has to be quite far apart by 100 yards.

 

[Boomer]

Where it gets side tracked is when someone goes "oh ya? Well my Dad can beat up your dad!" I should have just recognized Boomers rant as the result of not having anything more worth while to add and ignored it.

Lets consider that, and to what you have contributed to the discussion as it relates to the exchange between you and I.

Post 91, your response was disrespectful to say the least when I questioned your evidence, and I let that slide.

Posts 94, 99,101,&118 were reasonably expressed differences of opinion.

Post 129 again was disrespectful and added nothing to the discussion, and I decided there was little point in continuing in an exchange with you which I expressed on Post 132.

Post 158 it seemed that things were back on track and I began an exchange with Sheephunter.

Post 160 you suggested through innuendo that I was an unethical hunter, as I never stated my position on the wisdom of a Texas Heart Shot, only that it was a common shot in thick cover deer hunting.

Post 165 I posted pictures in response to your suggestion that big bullets were to be scorned at for bear work, to support the logic I used in selecting my loads, and as evidence to show that bears are a year round concern for those of us who spend time out on the land on foot.

Post 173 describes two fictional accounts, one involving a grizzly the other the Marlin and the black bear thing. Your attitude towards a wounded animal brings your experience into question, because despite our best efforts towards a humane one shot stop, circumstances sometimes get in the way, and anyone who has hunted will sooner or later not get the bang-flop he hopes for. Wounding is not a sin if unintentional, but screwing up the follow up could be.

Post 183 I point out that your fairy-tale did you little good, and brought your experience into question.

Post 185 is the rant of a spoiled child having a tantrum. It serves no purpose other than to further discredit you.

Now on this last post, you have convinced yourself that none of this is your fault. Pretty amazing.

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Yes, I've been warned for being hard on portly, fish eating sea birds. My apologies to the puffin.
It is funny how everything is fine as long as we all agree. Burn the heretic becomes the rally cry as soon as one of the idols word is challenged. The fact is discussion is good for information flow. Right or wrong everyone has read both sides the argument and maybe learnt a few things along the way. I know I have. Does everyone think that advancements in any field came about with out disagreement? Of course not with out some one saying your a fool very few would ever think outside the box.
Where it gets side tracked is when someone goes "oh ya? Well my Dad can beat up your dad!" I should have just recognized Boomers rant as the result of not having anything more worth while to add and ignored it.

For responding to that tirade I apologize.

My request had nothing to do with your discussion, and I think you've figured that out.
Demeaning remarks to other forum members is what I'm referring to.

 

[MadDog]

Demeaning remarks to other forum members is what I'm referring to.

Just let the regulars see what they're dealing with and they'll take care of it from there on in. Once a member has hung themselves it's alot easier to get the big red button pushed.

Patience is a virtue and I've got lots of time.

 

[sheephunter]

...

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Good point.

 

[joe-nwt]

Joe, apparently you failed to comprehend my point. All of the loads could be super accurate but the fact remains that they will likely all throw those super accurate groups at different POI. This isn't about one load vs another...it's about common sense and sighting your rifle in with the load you are using. I don't own 100 yard loads.....I shoot all super accurate loads and that could be a dozen different ones for a specific rifle but you definitely wouldn't find me switching between them mid hunt without checking zero and if you'd care to read my previous posts, you'll see that I said basically anything you stuff in the chamber will get the job done at 100 yards. POI has to do with how the bullet acts in relation to your riflings and each bullets acts differently.....sometimes with no loss of accuracy but a definite shift in POI.

OK. Let me rephrase my statement. In your rifle, would the POI of two different kinds of ammo be so far apart to put on of them outside the vitals on a game animal at 100yards? As in, zero with one type of ammo, 6-8" off with another>? At 100 yards?

I own no rifles at all that will vary the POI more than about 3". Sometimes I load an accurate long range load while hunting in my 300WM, but carry a mag full of something more suitable for close-up should I happen to see game while walking a trail in the bush, for instance. At bush distances, I don't care if my POI is off an inch or two from my long range load. I'm more interested in a robust bullet to handle the velocity up close.

And yes, Clarke, I know the TSX is the perfect bullet for that application......

 

[sheephunter]

OK. Let me rephrase my statement. In your rifle, would the POI of two different kinds of ammo be so far apart to put on of them outside the vitals on a game animal at 100yards? As in, zero with one type of ammo, 6-8" off with another>? At 100 yards?

I own no rifles at all that will vary the POI more than about 3". Sometimes I load an accurate long range load while hunting in my 300WM, but carry a mag full of something more suitable for close-up should I happen to see game while walking a trail in the bush, for instance. At bush distances, I don't care if my POI is off an inch or two from my long range load. I'm more interested in a robust bullet to handle the velocity up close.

And yes, Clarke, I know the TSX is the perfect bullet for that application......

No, three inches would be about the maximum I've seen as well but for me that seems like a mile. You are right that it's well within the vitals but I don't worry about any of my bullets getting the job done up close and like to know exactly where zero is with the one I'm shooting. Maybe I worry too much but just couldn't fathom shooting a bullet that might hit three inches off zero. Carrying one load that gets the job done at all ranges and hits a zero I'm confident in seems the responsible thing to do. The other factor is that the 3" shift in POI is off a rest at the range. I'm definitely not a .5" shooter off hand at 100 yards. I'm not sure I'm a 3" shooter off hand at 100 yards. For the average shooter, that 3" shift can quickly be magnified to considerably more....possibly enough to fall outside a 10" kill zone. Many shooters don't need any more excuses to miss than they already have and handicapping them by an extra 3" doesn't seem all that prudent.

 

[Boomer]

I'm not sure what your argument is. If my rifle shoots the 380's to point of aim at 100 yards and the 260 gr BT's shoot 3" high with the same sight setting, and there is no shift left or right with either load, why is a 3" difference in elevation at 100 yards a problem? Since no rifle is capable of shooting to zero at all ranges at any one time, surely your rifle is also sighted high at 100.

If you are talking about accuracy, then a good marksman can shoot a 3 MOA rifle up to that rifle, the rifle won't make him shoot 4 MOA. If he throws a shot out to 4 MOA it doesn't matter how accurate the rifle is. If the shooter is a 5 MOA marksman, he doesn't become a 2 MOA marksman by getting a 1 minute rifle.

I would not be inclined to take an off hand shot beyond 100 yards except in an emergency, but off hand I can keep 2 shots inside 2". A week or two ago I fired a 6 shot 2" group at 100 yards with 2 shots from standing, 2 shots kneeling and 2 shots sitting. I am confident I can place my first round within a 2" circle at 100 yards off hand on demand, providing I'm not shooting in a wind strong enough to effect my hold, in which case I'd try to shoot from kneeling or sitting. I suppose by definition that makes me a two minute shooter, as I can stay within two minutes out to 300 from sitting or prone with my 2X scope. But I would only consider shots on big game beyond 300 yards in extraordinary circumstances as I am of the "if you can get lower, then get lower and if you can get closer then get closer" school.

So if I'm walking in close cover or expect a shot within 150 yards the cartridge has a big black flat nosed parallel sided bullet on the end of it, but if I'm on the tundra it will probably be topped off with a pointy bullet with a green tip (or white when I'm forced to switch to AB's) on it. My ability to shoot the rifle doesn't change. Both loads are shot enough with the same sight setting that I know what to expect from them, as well as my small game load.

I don't have any aversion to using TSX's and I usually have a box of 300 gr loaded at any one time. I also have a box of 286 gr PMP solids loaded, but neither gets much use. The TSX is a good compromise bullet, but they don't work as well for my purposes as either of the others, but because the TSX has become the premium to which all others are compared, they do provide a good control when testing other bullets.

 

[sheephunter]

Boomer, there are exceptions to every rule and I have no doubt in your siuation that a three inch vertical shift likely doesn't affect anything. What I'm talking about is the average shooter and overall practices and switching loads mid hunt is not a good overall pratice and I still say it's irresponsible to tell prople it's a good idea. You accuracy scenario is flawed as well. We aren't talking about a 3MOA rifle here, we are talking about a rifle with two different zeros....which many times may have 3" horizontal shifts in POI. In that case, the shooter's 3" ability definitely magnifies the problem because we are now talking two different zeros. The accracy of the rifle could be .5MOA....it really doesn't matter in this scenario.

Look at it this way......The rifle is sighted for load A. Load B shoots 3" left. The shooter is a 3 MOA shooter off hand which I doubt many shooters are btw. The shooter holds the crosshairs on target but the rifle is already shooting 3" off and the shooter is only capable of 3" with that .5MOA rifle so now that shot could easily be 6" horizontally off target. If you aimed at the middle of a 10" kill zone....you just missed!

I guess I look at things in much broader terms than you. I'm not interested in those #### measuring contests about what a good shooter I am or you are and how one of us can defy rules because of our superior ability. I'm interested in talking about average situations and what we as hunters as a collective need to do to be responsible and switching loads mid hunt is not something we as hunters should be promoting as responsible or ethical.

 

[Boomer]

You seem to be obsessed with #### measuring, but that's your hang up not mine. I brought the example of my marksmanship into the discussion to support my contention that using more than one load in my rifle is prudent for my purposes. This was in no way meant to belittle you or anyone else. In many circles, being a 2MOA marksman ain't anything special, so I'd hardly call it bragging.

When A-Square developed the bullet triad, carrying ammunition that could be interchanged to suit conditions is precisely what Art Alphin had in mind. This is far from unethical in that it means you always have the best bullet for the job under the hammer.

If there is horizontal displacement of any load in relation to the sight it is a huge deal, but again, it is prudent to not proceed down this path unless you have zero horizontal displacement. That is why I go to lengths to ensure that my interchangeable loads are within horizontal coincidence.

As for vertical displacement, is there no change to your POI between 100 and 500 yards? Do you never take a shot 20 yards on either side of your zero distance? There is only coincidence between the bullet's path and the sight within a very narrow window. Other than that you must adjust for the specific range, either by adjusting the sight or by holding off once the bullet is outside the point blank window. Given your tight tolerances of trajectory and sight placement that window is pretty short.

It's interesting how one's life experiences effect his attention one way and someone else's in another. You say you don't have any 100 yard loads. All your attention then is from intermediate to long range shooting. That's cool, but if it's unethical to suggest that Joe Average should carry 2 loads, I would think that it is equally unethical to suggest he shoot beyond his limits. My limits appear to be well within yours, and that's cool, I just prefer to do my tracking before the shot rather than after. You are concerned with things that happen at the horizon while my life experience has suggested that I pay attention to those things that happen close enough to effect me.

 

[sheephunter]

All my attention is most definitely not medium and long range....it's zero to whatever distance I'm comfortable shooting with the particular caliber. I have no 100 yard loads, I have no 200 yard loads and I have no 300 yard loads. I have one load with a known zero and a constant POI at zero. As for your comments about prefering tracking before the shot rather than after....I think that could be said about all ethical hunters so you can take yourself off that pedestal as well. I've debated with people like you before Boomer and once they run out of relevant information, they start twisting the other person's words to suit their faltering point of view. It seems we've arrived at that point.....I'm done.

 

[Boomer]

Adios!

 

[Gatehouse]

Still wondering if any of the critics have actually attempted to make practice ammo that shoots to the same POI as their hunting load...........